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Subject: Re: Artificial Intelligence in Computer Chess - *DETAILS* as promised

Author: Anthony Cozzie

Date: 07:27:19 03/29/04

Go up one level in this thread

On March 29, 2004 at 10:01:55, martin fierz wrote:

>On March 29, 2004 at 09:46:48, Uri Blass wrote:
>>On March 29, 2004 at 08:54:09, martin fierz wrote:
>>>On March 29, 2004 at 07:04:13, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>On March 29, 2004 at 06:25:28, martin fierz wrote:
>>>>>On March 28, 2004 at 18:55:53, Artem Pyatakov wrote:
>>>>>hi artem,
>>>>>>>>On the other hand, I think a lot of researchers have been overly ambitious and
>>>>>>>>have tried to replace Alpha-Beta & tricks with a neural network or some totally
>>>>>>>>different approach. I think that with the current state of AI tools, these
>>>>>>>>efforts are bound to fail.
>>>>>>>A lot of researchers?  Other than myself, I don't know of any other workers who
>>>>>>>are attempting a complete and competitive chess playing program that doesn't
>>>>>>>tread the oft traveled A/B bag-of-tricks road.
>>>>>>That's good a point (will probably include in paper) - not many are working on a
>>>>>>complete chess program, since most just address a particular section, like the
>>>>>>evaluation function. But one old effort - MORPH - comes to mind, and I think I
>>>>>>noticed a couple of other failed Neural Net efforts (don't have references
>>>>>>handy, but I can look).
>>>>>steven is doing a completely radical departure from A/B. but many others are
>>>>>applying more gradual changes to the A/B-model, with reasonable success
>>>>>(smarthink, kaissa, gothmog come to mind, and probably most commercial engines
>>>>>too). at least these engines make considerably larger attempts to shape their
>>>>>game tree than a "classic" A/B searcher like crafty does.
>>>>>>As I mentioned before, I decided to concentrate my research on move ordering for
>>>>>>a couple of reasons:
>>>>>>1) Move ordering promises big payoffs if done right.
>>>>>how much deeper can you search if you reach 95% move ordering success (defined
>>>>>as cutoff @ 1st / all cutoffs) instead of ~90% that most get today? how much if
>>>>>you reach 100%?
>>>>I cannot answer the 95% question but I can answer the 100%.
>>>>If you reach 100% then always choosing the first move is enough because if the
>>>>first move does not generate a cutoff no move is going to generate a cutoff so
>>>>you can finish to search to the end of the game very quickly because you search
>>>>only one move in every ply.
>>>you do not answer the question here - and what you answer is wrong too :-)
>>>always choosing the best move first to search means you search sqrt(N) moves per
>>>ply on average, not 1 move per ply.
>>In that case you do not need to search the other moves because you know that
>>they are worse.
>>If you always start from the best move than the pruning strategy of not
>>searching moves except the first move is simply correct and I see no reason not
>>to use it.
>come on uri, this is ridiculous. of course you can use that shortcut IF you know
>that your move ordering is 100% perfect. in that case you need no search at all
>either. obviously this is an academic question and has nothing to do with
>reality, and is not what i'm asking... the question remains: in the extremely
>unlikely case that you have 100% perfect move ordering (by accident), what do
>you gain compared to 90% perfect (in the usual sense of move ordering %age)?
>  martin

It would be possible to determine this experimentally - just keep track of each
position and the best move at each ply on the hard disk.  It wouldn't be
practical for use but it would be pretty interesting.


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