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Subject: Re: move ordering and node count

Author: Gerd Isenberg

Date: 11:58:53 03/29/04

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<snip>
>>Sorry Martin for my mathematical ignorance,
>
>gerd! you and mathematical ignorance?? gerd, the master of the bitwise operator
>universe want to claim mathematical ignorance?!
>
>>but what if you sort white moves
>>(even ply) perfect and black moves (odd ply) worst case?
>>
>>Or all-nodes perfect but cut-nodes worst (there a sill pv-nodes)?
>
>i never said i knew anything about this, instead i was looking for people who do
>know about it to answer my questions!
>let me try to answer, but i'm not so sure about this...
>
>i would think that the second part of your question is easy to answer: there you
>get the same worst case as usual. ordering all-nodes is useless (which is why
>some engines don't order moves any further after the first few, assuming they
>are all-nodes). ordering the cut-nodes worst will obviously give you no cutoffs
>either.

Inside some cut nodes each move fails high.


> and the "still pv-nodes" thing doesn't matter either, because pv-nodes
>are also "all-nodes" in the sense that you have to search every move there (i
>assume with all-nodes you talked about those which fail low for all moves, else
>pv-nodes are simply a part of the all-node-set).

No i want to exclude pv-nodes from all-nodes:

Each pv's sibling is a cut-node.
All-node are childs of cut-nodes.
Every child of an all-node is a cut-node.

But of course i forgot the smily ;-)


>
>as for your first question, i think that as you will always be looking at the
>best move for white, therefore you will, as white, always be either in a pv
>node, or in a cut-node (if black plays bad moves, as he can under your
>assumption). you cannot go into a fail-low-node (except if you use aspiration
>search and fail low there, but let's forget about that for now...). which means
>that black will always be in either pv nodes or fail-low-nodes, and therefore it
>doesn't matter - in this case, you have the same as perfect move ordering for
>both sides.
>
>perhaps i get this wrong, you correct me. on second thought, it seems to me that
>you want to discredit my formula because that of course is useless for such
>cases. of course there i am assuming some sensible move ordering where both
>sides are ordering with equal efficiency.
>

No sorry - i had to study your formula for a while and i got Steve's formula
earlier - pattern matching ;-)

Cheers,
Gerd

<snip>



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