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Subject: Re: King's Out : move ordering questions

Author: Heiner Marxen

Date: 07:45:52 04/02/04

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On April 02, 2004 at 10:06:10, Bernd Nürnberger wrote:

>On April 02, 2004 at 09:10:06, Heiner Marxen wrote:
>
>>On April 01, 2004 at 07:57:27, Bernd Nürnberger wrote:
>>
>>>On March 31, 2004 at 12:35:21, Renze Steenhuisen wrote:
>>>
>>>>>(1)
>>>>>I recognized that a different move ordering delivers very alternating
>>>>>results in my alpha beta search. (I implemented null move, pv search,
>>>>>mvv/lva, some history moves, transposition table, quiescence search ...)
>>>>>Is this a bug or is this a normal behaviour?
>>>>>For example, with 3 history moves (on initial position) i get:
>>>>>[...]
>>>>> 8.   0:01.12      993512   0.00  Nc3 Nf6 d4 d5 Nf3 Bf5 Ne5 Ne4
>>-------------------------------^^^^
>>>>>... and with just one more history move (4):
>>>>>[...]
>>>>> 8.   0:01.28     1088694   0.00  e4 Nc6 Nf3 e5 d4 Nxd4 Nxd4 h6
>>-------------------------------^^^^
>>>>
>>>>Seems reasonable.
>>>
>>>Mmmh, that still is not very reasonably to me to get much different results
>>>for different move orderings.
>>>The score of the moves itself should not be affected ?!
>>>Do you have an explanation?
>>
>>But the score _is_not_ changed... see above.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Heiner
>
>
>That's just a coincidence, another example from another position:
>
>10.   0:00.57      459625   0.22  Rxf4 Kg3 Rf7 Kxg2 Kb4 c5 Kb3 c4
>
>... and with a slightly different move ordering:
>
>10.   0:01.78     1694656   0.01  e3 Kg3 exf4 Rf5 Rb2 Kxf4 Ka4 Rg5
>
>That still seems somewhat strange to me ?!
>
>These are not made up strange examples. A different move ordering
>changes everything very much in my engine and I am not glad about
>this fact, whether it's natural or not, because I still cannot
>understand it ..
>
>Greetings, Bernd

Without transposition table that is a bug, IMHO.
With TT anything can happen.

Cheers,
Heiner



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