Author: martin fierz
Date: 08:01:06 04/15/04
Go up one level in this thread
On April 15, 2004 at 09:08:50, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On April 15, 2004 at 01:01:59, martin fierz wrote: > >>On April 14, 2004 at 21:56:58, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On April 14, 2004 at 19:06:58, martin fierz wrote: >>> >>>>On April 14, 2004 at 12:32:56, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 14, 2004 at 10:21:55, martin fierz wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On April 13, 2004 at 17:00:24, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On April 13, 2004 at 14:21:07, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On April 13, 2004 at 01:29:02, Russell Reagan wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On April 12, 2004 at 23:07:46, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Further, wouldn't you just *hate* if I took the fun out of chess programming by >>>>>>>>>>telling you everything? :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>My gut feeling is that we would probably be disappointed for the most part. I >>>>>>>>>bet a lot of us think all of you commercial authors are harboring lots of >>>>>>>>>magical secrets that can turn an average program into a beast. Something similar >>>>>>>>>to the improvements you get by going from minimax to alphabeta, or by adding >>>>>>>>>null-move to an average program, and things like that. Those are very >>>>>>>>>significant improvements. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I have received the impression from you and other sources like Ed's webpage that >>>>>>>>>this is not the case. There are some clever things on Ed's webpage, but for the >>>>>>>>>most part, it is good ideas based on common sense, and then taking the time and >>>>>>>>>effort to hammer out every last detail to make an idea work, followed by an >>>>>>>>>efficient implementation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>To illistrate the difference between what I think a lot of people would expect >>>>>>>>>to hear from you if you divulged all of your secrets and what I think we would >>>>>>>>>really get, consider null-move. Null-move is something that you can add to a >>>>>>>>>program that uses no forward pruning, and once you spend a small amount of time >>>>>>>>>getting it to work right, the program suddenly plays like it's on steroids >>>>>>>>>(relatively speaking). However, if we took an average program and added in a few >>>>>>>>>ideas from Ed's webpage, I wouldn't expect nearly as big of an improvement. I >>>>>>>>>think you guys just take a lot of ideas and get small improvements here and >>>>>>>>>there, and at the end of the decade, it amounts to a big improvement. 10% >>>>>>>>>reduction in tree size here, 20% there, it adds up. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Am I right? If we are expecting to see magical earth shattering secrets, would >>>>>>>>>we be disappointed? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I don't think you would be disappointed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>But you are right in assuming that you would not see a dramatic improvement such >>>>>>>>as the one you get from alpha-beta vs minimax. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You know, one has to wonder where the difference in elo strength between Crafty >>>>>>>>and the top commercial comes from. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Compare this with your mileage at home. Many of the plus performance scores are >>>>>>>against accounts running commercial programs. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>this is irrelevant to the discussion - crafty on ICC is running on 4 processors. >>>>>>big hardware difference... >>>>> >>>>>Nope. Dual xeon 2.8 with hyperthreading on. There are faster duals on ICC >>>>>running the "deep programs." >>>> >>>>that is fine. but your finger notes state otherwise :-) >>>> >>>>cheers >>>> martin >>> >>> >>> >>>where?:: >>> >>> >>> 1: Crafty v19.12 (4 cpus) >>> 2: crafty uses all 3/4/5/6 piece endgame databases, over 150 gigs so far. >>> 3: Dell Poweredge 2600, 2 x 2.8ghz xeon >>> >>>line 3 says it all. Most know that a dual xeon looks like 4 cpus to the chess >>>engine if SMT is enabled... >> >>where you ask?? what about line 1 "(4 cpus)"?? >>i didn't read any further than that, and if i did i would have thought you had a >>mistake in your notes 1 or 3. i certainly don't know that a dual xeon looks like >>4 cpus. and if i don't know, then most won't know :-) >> >>cheers >> martin > > >You did not follow any of the extensive hyper-threading discussions here over >the past 2 years??? no :-) wasn't that obvious from my ignorance? cheers martin
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