Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 23:43:44 04/16/04
Go up one level in this thread
On April 16, 2004 at 17:23:49, Stephen Ham wrote: >On April 16, 2004 at 16:15:03, Mark Young wrote: > >>On April 16, 2004 at 16:05:45, Drexel,Michael wrote: >> >>>On April 16, 2004 at 15:09:01, Stephen Ham wrote: >>> >>>>On April 16, 2004 at 14:05:26, Mark Young wrote: >>>> >>>>>On April 16, 2004 at 10:54:12, Stephen Ham wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On April 16, 2004 at 09:00:36, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>First it was Deep Fritz against Kramnik then Deep Junior versus Kasparov, >>>>>>>nothing but to boring draw matches. It is about time for us to see the strongest >>>>>>>chess program Shredder 8 accomplishing what Deep Blue did back in 1997 against >>>>>>>Kasparov. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>>Jorge, >>>>>> >>>>>>I think that you're forgetting that the strongest engine in engine versus engine >>>>>>contests (Shredder 8) isn't, as a consequence, the strongest versus humans. >>>>>>That's why Rebel probably has the best record against humans of any engine to >>>>>>date. I've read that Crafty scores well against us too. >>>>> >>>>>This maybe correct...but I don't think so. More data needed. >>>>> >>>>>I am not sure your claim is correct that Rebel has the best record to date of >>>>>any engine. I am sure Junior, Hiarcs, Chess Tiger, and the Fritz will argue this >>>>>point with you. >>>>> >>>>>I am not sure what you mean by the best record against humans. >>>>> >>>>>Chess Tiger 14, Hiarcs 8, Junior 6, Fritz 8 have all had 2700+ PR playing >>>>>against humans. >>>>> >>>>>Junior 8 and Deep Fritz 8 have a 2800+ PR playing humans. >>>>> >>>>>As far as I know Shredder 7.04 or Shredder 8. The top programs on the SSDF list >>>>>don't have any GM games played to data. So to make the statement that: >>>>> >>>>>"the strongest engine in engine versus engine >>>>>contests (Shredder 8) isn't, as a consequence, the strongest versus humans." >>>>> >>>>>This statement has no basis in fact. This is pure speculation. >>>> >>>>Not at all, Mark. Again, Jorge was writing about matches against the best >>>>humans. Fritz and Junior and others have had their chances and the results were: >>>>draws. This was the point of Jorge's post. >>>> >>>>Instead, the engines you wrote about above gained their successes in tournament >>>>action. However, some of those engines failed in their match against Smirin. So >>>>in the context of matches, Rebel won all of its matches I believe, including >>>>those versus Anand and van Wely and other strong GM's. Since Rebel's victories >>>>were several years ago, then one presumes that the latest version should prove >>>>at least as strong against humans. >>> >>>This is completely wrong. >>>Anand won the "match" against Rebel with 1.5-0.5. >>> >>>Van Wely-Rebel ended 2-2 >> >>You are correct.... about the wely-rebel match. I am also sure he was talking >>about GM John van der Wiel vs Rebel match. But this makes Mr. Ham is wrong again >>in this statement. >> >>"Rebel won all of its matches I believe, including >>those versus Anand and van Wely and other strong GM's." >> > >Gentlemen, > >It seems that my memory did err slightly. It was indeed van der Weil and not van >Wely, that Rebel defeated. Nonetheless, here are the facts: > >Rebel defeated Yusupov >Rebel defeated Anand - by the way, Rebel played on a standard PC of 1998, no >special hardware >Rebel defeated van der Wiel, a GM having success defeating other engines >Rebel drew with van Wely. Rebel didn't defeat Anand. You can't mix 5 minute blitz games, 15 minute Blitz(Rapid) games and tournament games. Shredder defeated Sergey Volkov 2-0 and Peter Acs 2-0 (Both about 2600 ELO) in rapid matches. It might have performed even better than Rebel against same opponents with equal time controls. Who knows? It does not make sense to discuss hypotetical questions. > >http://members.home.nl/matador/chess.htm > >Since Fritz and Junior played with special multiple processors, with each >processor being faster than the single 1998-vintage PC that Rebel had when >defeating Anand, then I think that Rebel's success is all the more amazing. >Sure, some of the Anand match was played with short-time controls. The Yusupov match was mainly a Blitz match too. I don't find it amazing that a computer beats a Human at Blitz. It's more the other way round. Every time when a human beats a computer in a (fair) Blitz match it would be amazing, since humans can hardly calculate something in Blitz. Michael But I suspect >that if Rebel had the chances that Fritz and Junior were given (special hardware >and special opening books, etc.) then I'd still put my money on Rebel. > >I respect that you disagree with me. So what? There's no need to make the >disagreement so personal. > >Stephen
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