Author: Thom Perry
Date: 10:48:49 12/14/98
Go up one level in this thread
On December 14, 1998 at 12:52:00, Laurence Chen wrote:
>On December 14, 1998 at 10:29:47, Thom Perry wrote:
>
>>On December 14, 1998 at 04:43:57, blass uri wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>On December 14, 1998 at 04:07:12, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>On December 14, 1998 at 00:12:19, blass uri wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I do not know if it is a good sacrifice.
>>>>>I suggest a simple test for it.
>>>>>can you beat chessmaster,fritz5,Junior5 with the sacrifice(You have the right to
>>>>>take back moves)?
>>>>>
>>>>>If you cannot then I suspect that it is a wrong sacrifice.
>>>>
>>>>I think this has to do with what a "real sacrifice" is.
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't use the term to describe a situation where a piece is sacrificed in
>>>>return for massive compensation against the king, in the form of increased
>>>>tactical complexity. I would tend to use it in a case where you're still
>>>>playing chess after the sacrifice, a case where there aren't extremely specific
>>>>threats that need to be made and defended against, a case where there are
>>>>resources for either side, and where compensation tends to be long-range.
>>>
>>>If the sacrifice is right then you can prove it by a game against programs.
>>>I did not say a short game.
>>>If you cannot beat chess programs by the sacrifice even after many moves when
>>>you have the right to take back moves then I suspect that the sacrifice is
>>>wrong.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>bruce
>>
>>
>>If the sacrifice is the correct move and forces a winning position, it seems to
>>me that this should be fairly easy for the good chess programs to demonstrate:
>>just let the program play out the game after the sacrifice. I'm going to do
>>just that with MCP8 tonight and with the learning enabled. Then I'll replay it
>>several times until MCP8 can find no better alternative, regardless of which
>>color tends to win.
>Thank you Tom Perry for your initiative and voluteering to this enormous task.
>Yes, I ran this position starting from move 18, and so far it has been
>demonstrated that White does indeed have enough compensation for the material
>sacrificed. It was a pity that both games ended in a draw, the game which Junior
>had White showed that if Black defends poorly, White can gain the upper hand, I
>believe that Junior played the endgame poorly and allowed Black to escape with a
>draw, which is a pity, this is one of the areas which needs to be improved, the
>endgame play of chess engines are poor sometimes. That is why endgame tablebases
>are needed. In the game between Junior and Fritz, Junior was able to win with
>White because Fritz did not put the best defense, and Junior drew with Black.
>Enough said, I look forward to seeing the games with the MCP8.
>
>[Event "?"]
>[Site "?"]
>[Date "????.??.??"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "Junior 5.0"]
>[Black "CM 6000"]
>[Result "1/2-1/2"]
>[SetUp "1"]
>[FEN "r1bq1r2/pp2n1pQ/4pk2/2n2pN1/8/2N1P3/PP3PPP/R4RK1 w - - 0 18"]
>[PlyCount "179"]
>
>{10240kB, f5book.ctg=1136620 pos} 18. e4 18... Nd3 {20} 19. Rad1 {-0.21/11 84}
>19... Ng6 {167} 20. exf5 {-0.09/12 0} 20... exf5 {32} 21. Qh5 {0.00/12 67}
>21... Ngf4 {7} 22. Nh7+ {0.39/11 36} 22... Ke7 {6} 23. Rfe1+ {0.79/10 14} 23...
>Be6 {6} 24. Qh4+ {0.96/11 44} 24... Ke8 {34} 25. Ng5 {1.63/12 68} 25... Rf6 {52
>} 26. Rxd3 {1.68/12 129} 26... Nxd3 {6} 27. Nxe6 {2.39/11 57} 27... Rxe6 {5}
>28. Rxe6+ {2.23/11 42} 28... Kf8 {7} 29. Qh7 {2.19/11 39} 29... Qg5 {58} 30.
>Re3 {2.34/12 0} 30... Rd8 {24} 31. h4 {2.94/12 20} 31... Qh6 {6} 32. Qxf5+ {
>3.13/11 13} 32... Qf6 {6} 33. Qe4 {3.04/12 44} 33... Qxf2+ {108} 34. Kh2 {
>3.19/14 0} 34... Kg8 {22} 35. Rxd3 {3.19/11 0} 35... Rxd3 {22} 36. Qc4+ {
>3.23/11 7} 36... Kf8 {14} 37. Qxd3 {3.22/10 0} 37... Qxh4+ {21} 38. Kg1 {
>3.32/11 14} 38... Qb4 {16} 39. Qd8+ {3.31/11 75} 39... Kf7 {7} 40. Qd7+ {
>3.38/10 27} 40... Kf8 {17} 41. Qc8+ {3.28/10 34} 41... Kf7 {14} 42. b3 {
>3.30/11 31} 42... Qb6+ {37} 43. Kf1 {3.46/12 61} 43... Qf6+ {14} 44. Ke2 {
>3.48/11 42} 44... Qe5+ {29} 45. Kf3 {3.35/11 35} 45... Qf6+ {6} 46. Ke4 {
>3.28/11 29} 46... Qe7+ {34} 47. Kd3 {3.50/12 0} 47... Qd6+ {28} 48. Kc4 {
>3.40/12 0} 48... Qf4+ {25} 49. Kb5 {3.38/11 2} 49... Qg5+ {25} 50. Qc5 {
>3.44/11 3} 50... Qxg2 {22} 51. Qxa7 {3.42/10 13} 51... g5 {11} 52. Qc5 {
>3.56/12 81} 52... Ke6 {5} 53. Kb6 {4.21/10 59} 53... g4 {42} 54. Qc8+ {
>4.45/10 0} 54... Ke5 {17} 55. Qxb7 {4.45/9 12} 55... Qf2+ {8} 56. Kb5 {
>5.18/9 43} 56... Qf1+ {31} 57. Ka5 {5.17/10 17} 57... Qf3 {21} 58. Qg7+ {
>5.30/8 26} 58... Ke6 {21} 59. a4 {5.32/9 2} 59... g3 {56} 60. Nb5 {5.35/11 0}
>60... Qa8+ {26} 61. Kb6 {5.50/11 0} 61... Qb8+ {13} 62. Kc6 {5.38/10 24} 62...
>Kf5 {24} 63. b4 {5.36/9 0} 63... Qa8+ {67} 64. Kc5 {5.50/9 18} 64... Kf4 {5}
>65. a5 {5.45/8 14} 65... g2 {10} 66. Nd4 {5.39/8 6} 66... Qc8+ {45} 67. Kd5 {
>4.75/11 0} 67... Qd8+ {19} 68. Kc4 {4.86/10 6} 68... Qc8+ {15} 69. Kb3 {
>4.71/10 7} 69... Qg4 {18} 70. Qc7+ {3.97/10 40} 70... Ke4 {15} 71. Qc2+ {
>4.01/9 2} 71... Ke3 {14} 72. Nf5+ {4.00/10 7} 72... Kf4 {6} 73. Qf2+ {3.67/9 8}
>73... Ke5 {4} 74. Ne3 {4.07/9 12} 74... Qg8+ {17} 75. Nc4+ {5.19/10 15} 75...
>Ke6 {5} 76. Qg1 {5.39/10 16} 76... Kd7 {29} 77. a6 {5.80/10 22} 77... Qd5 {23}
>78. a7 {5.80/11 0} 78... Ke6 {36} 79. Kc3 {6.17/11 73} 79... Qf3+ {21} 80. Ne3
>{5.98/11 74} 80... Qc6+ {6} 81. Kb3 {7.27/10 9} 81... Qe4 {12} 82. Ka4 {
>5.69/10 16} 82... Qb7 {43} 83. Nxg2 {7.06/12 0} 83... Qa6+ {19} 84. Kb3 {
>7.17/3 0} 84... Qd3+ {8} 85. Kb2 {5.24/11 4} 85... Qd2+ {5} 86. Kb1 {4.60/11 5}
>86... Qxb4+ {25} 87. Ka2 {5.39/11 14} 87... Qa4+ {13} 88. Kb2 {5.43/11 0} 88...
>Qb4+ {20} 89. Kc2 {5.39/11 0} 89... Qa4+ {18} 90. Kd3 {3.00/11 23} 90... Qb5+ {
>19} 91. Ke4 {3.13/10 4} 91... Qf5+ {21} 92. Ke3 {0.79/12 0} 92... Qc5+ {10} 93.
>Ke2 {0.74/10 0} 93... Qxg1 {16} 94. a8=Q {0.82/11 0} 94... Qd4 {15} 95. Qe8+ {
>0.91/8 16} 95... Kd6 {5} 96. Qd8+ {0.87/8 9} 96... Kc5 {4} 97. Qc7+ {0.96/9 27}
>97... Kb5 {2} 98. Ne3 {0.84/9 8} 98... Qb2+ {17} 99. Nc2 {0.85/10 21} 99... Qf6
>{5} 100. Qb7+ {0.91/8 4} 100... Kc5 {25} 101. Qb4+ {0.98/9 26} 101... Kc6 {4}
>102. Ne3 {0.85/8 8} 102... Qe5 {31} 103. Qc4+ {0.97/10 0} 103... Kd7 {11} 104.
>Qa4+ {0.89/8 6} 104... Ke7 {8} 105. Qh4+ {0.88/9 36} 105... Ke6 {15} 106. Qh3+
>{1.02/9 22} 106... Kd6 {16} 107. Kd3 {0.99/9 18} 1/2-1/2
>
>
>[Event "?"]
>[Site "?"]
>[Date "????.??.??"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "CM 6000"]
>[Black "Junior 5.0"]
>[Result "1/2-1/2"]
>[SetUp "1"]
>[FEN "r1bq1r2/pp2n1pQ/4pk2/2n2pN1/8/2N1P3/PP3PPP/R4RK1 w - - 0 18"]
>[PlyCount "24"]
>
>{10240kB, f5book.ctg=1136620 pos 10240kB, f5book.ctg=1136620 pos} 18. e4 18...
>Nd3 {-0.68/11 164} 19. Rad1 {43} 19... Ng6 {-0.12/11 54} 20. h4 {21} 20... Nge5
>{-0.21/13 381} 21. f4 {8} 21... Qd4+ {0.01/11 41} 22. Kh1 {5} 22... Ng4 {
>0.00/11 25} 23. e5+ {7} 23... Ke7 {-0.10/11 21} 24. Qxg7+ {6} 24... Ke8 {
>0.00/11 21} 25. Ne2 {23} 25... Ndf2+ {0.00/11 42} 26. Kg1 {17} 26... Nh3+ {
>0.00/11 6} 27. Kh1 {5} 27... Nhf2+ {0.00/11 6} 28. Kg1 {5} 28... Nh3+ {
>0.00/11 42} 29. Kh1 {6} 29... Nhf2+ {0.00/11 9} 1/2-1/2
>
>[Event "?"]
>[Site "?"]
>[Date "????.??.??"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "Fritz 5.16"]
>[Black "Junior 5.0"]
>[Result "1/2-1/2"]
>[SetUp "1"]
>[FEN "r1bq1r2/pp2n1pQ/4pk2/2n2pN1/8/2N1P3/PP3PPP/R4RK1 w - - 0 18"]
>[PlyCount "16"]
>
>{10240kB, f5book.ctg=1136620 pos} 18. e4 18... Nd3 {0} 19. Rad1 Ng6 20. exf5
>exf5 21. Qh5 Rh8 22. Nh7+ Kf7 23. Ng5+ Kf6 24. Nh7+ Kf7 25. Ng5+ Kf6 1/2-1/2
>
>[Event "?"]
>[Site "?"]
>[Date "????.??.??"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "Junior 5.0"]
>[Black "Fritz 5.16"]
>[Result "1-0"]
>[SetUp "1"]
>[FEN "r1bq1r2/pp2n1pQ/4pk2/2n2pN1/8/2N1P3/PP3PPP/R4RK1 w - - 0 18"]
>[PlyCount "107"]
>
>{10240kB, f5book.ctg=1136620 pos} 18. e4 18... e5 19. Rad1 Qb6 20. Qh4 Be6 21.
>b4 Na6 22. Nf3+ Kf7 23. Nxe5+ Ke8 24. b5 Nc5 25. exf5 Rxf5 26. Qh8+ Rf8 27.
>Qh5+ g6 28. Nxg6 Nxg6 29. Qxg6+ Rf7 30. Rfe1 Kf8 31. Qh6+ Kg8 32. Re5 Rg7 33.
>Rg5 Rxg5 34. Qxg5+ Kf7 35. Qh5+ Kg7 36. Nd5 Qd8 37. Qe5+ Kf7 38. Qf4+ Kg7 39.
>Qd4+ Kf7 40. Qe5 Rc8 41. Qf4+ Kg7 42. Qg3+ Kh7 43. Qe5 Qf8 44. Rd4 Qh6 45. Rc4
>Rd8 46. Qc7+ Rd7 47. Qxc5 Bxd5 48. Rd4 Qg5 49. g3 Qf5 50. Rh4+ Kg6 51. Qc1 Be4
>52. f3 Qxb5 53. Rxe4 Qb6+ 54. Kg2 Rc7 55. Rg4+ Kh7 56. Rh4+ Kg8 57. Qg5+ Rg7
>58. Qh5 Qb2+ 59. Kh3 Rf7 60. Rg4+ Qg7 61. Rxg7+ Rxg7 62. Qe8+ Kh7 63. f4 Kh6
>64. f5 Kh7 65. f6 Rc7 66. f7 Rxf7 67. Qxf7+ Kh8 68. Qxb7 Kg8 69. Qa8+ Kg7 70.
>Qxa7+ Kf6 71. Qd4+ 1-0
I am planning on running the position beginning with black's move right after
the 12. Bxh7+ sacrifice. I will use the standard tournament time controls
(3min./move) and hopefully can get in at least two iterations tonight. Since I
am using a DOS web browser at home (Arachne) which doesn't have a clipboard, I
won't be able to post my results until I get to work tomorrow morning (USA
Eastern Standard Time).
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