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Subject: Re: Diep and Falcon #2 and 3

Author: Omid David Tabibi

Date: 04:21:59 05/01/04

Go up one level in this thread


On May 01, 2004 at 05:21:08, Sune Fischer wrote:

>On May 01, 2004 at 05:04:54, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On May 01, 2004 at 04:33:59, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>
>>>On May 01, 2004 at 00:58:02, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 30, 2004 at 22:44:40, Chessfun wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Diep is now in the #3 programs
>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?362447
>>>>>
>>>>>And Falcon is a Grandmaster strength program about 2700 ELO.
>>>>>
>>>>>And assuming "Shredder 8 is the only engine that consistently scores above 50%
>>>>>against Falcon in my tests"
>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?362348 we can therefore assume
>>>>>it's #2
>>>>>
>>>>>That leaves Shredder 8 at #1.
>>>>>
>>>>>Lucky both the #2 and #3 program are neither for sale or available else some may
>>>>>even report they are #1 ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>I would suggest to both programmers that they get a good team of beta testers
>>>>>and start posting game scores and results that would be deemed realistic.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sarah.
>>>>
>>>>At least in the case of Falcon the programmer did not claim that it is one of
>>>>the top 3 engines.
>>>>
>>>>He used the Fritz8's book for Falcon in his tests and he even did not claim that
>>>>in these conditions Falcon is better than Fritz or Junior.
>>>>
>>>>Shredder 8 is the only engine that consistently scores above 50% does not mean
>>>>that Deep Fritz8 or Junior8 cannot do it but only that they did not do it in all
>>>>of his tests.
>>>
>>>"Consistently" is not a mathematical word :)
>>>
>>>So it depends how you read "winning consistently", it could mean just winning on
>>>average, or it could mean it wins all the time ie. never losing or even drawing.
>>>
>>>I think the latter is too strong, ie. if you have the match results
>>>60-40, 55-45, 89-11, 48-52, 61-39....
>>>
>>>I'd still say one engine here is winning consistently, ie. it is who wins on
>>>average that is the most obvious interpretation.
>>
>>
>>see http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?362354
>>winning consistently means that usually Shredder win a match of 4 games.
>
>Yes and the example also says that Falcon usually scores around 50% against
>Fritz.
>
>>Of course it is not well defined and the question how you read usually but I
>>will say that it means more than 50% of the matches.
>>
>>If Fritz wins 40% of the matchs of 4 games when Falcon wins 30%
>>of these matchs then Fritz does not beat Falcon consistently inspite of the fact
>>that it is slightly better by that definition
>
>Yeah this might have been what he meant, it didn't quite come off like that.
>Omid also saw people that people were misunderstanding it, and he didn't do
>anything to correct those that read it to being as strong as Fritz.

People seem to be reading anything they want into anything posted. I originally
posted that Shredder is the strongest engine, and look at all the nonsense
people have started. Why disturb the fun?


>
>So once and for all, Omid, could you be more specific so we can lay this to
>rest?

I have already been specific as to what I meant:

http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?362354

I measure the imrovement of Falcon not with a series of long matches against a
specific engine, but by conducting gauntlet matches against 15 programs, 4
matches with each (using equal hardware, one processor, equal books, etc). While
Shredder 8 repeatedly scores more than 50% in the 4 games, Fritz and Junior
sometimes end up with more than 2 points out of 4, and sometimes with less.

But who cares what I meant, let's continue the fun here :)


>
>-S.
>>Uri



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