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Subject: Re: Fail-hard, fail-soft question

Author: Gerd Isenberg

Date: 13:19:19 05/06/04

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On May 06, 2004 at 15:47:33, Peter McKenzie wrote:

>On May 06, 2004 at 15:23:30, Gerd Isenberg wrote:
>
>>On May 06, 2004 at 15:05:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On May 06, 2004 at 14:31:08, Gerd Isenberg wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 06, 2004 at 11:58:11, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 06, 2004 at 11:38:44, Dan Honeycutt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Yet again I apologize for asking a question which I'm sure has been asked many
>>>>>>times before, but could someone explain the difference between a fail-hard and a
>>>>>>fail-soft and how does is affect a PVS search?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I made the guess that, ie, if (score >= beta) if I return score it's a fail-hard
>>>>>>and if I return beta it's a fail-soft.  It would seem that what I return doesn't
>>>>>>so much matter as what I put in the hash table.  If I put in the (possibly)
>>>>>>higher value of score then I have a higher lower bound and a greater chance for
>>>>>>a hash cut if this position arises again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>Dan H.
>>>>>
>>>>>That is backward.  But you have the right idea.  Fail-hard never returns a value
>>>>>outside the initial alpha/beta window.  Fail-soft does.
>>>>
>>>>I often confuse this hard/soft definitions too - i have the wrong mnemonic
>>>>trick. Intuitively i found it harder if i jump outside a window ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>It is just as intuitive as where you store a lower bound but flag the position
>>>as an UPPER bound position.  Makes sense after a lot of thought, but it still
>>>leads to confusion...  :)
>>
>>yes, but that seems more logical to me than the fail-soft versus fail-hard
>>issue. To store the lower bound alfa if your score is less or equal to it, hence
>>score is an upper bound, it could be lower.
>>
>>But i never understood why returning values outside the window is soft.
>
>I'd say that fail-hard is called that because alpha and beta are 'hard' (i.e.
>definite) bounds on the score that can be returned.


Yep, i got it ;-)



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