Author: Dan Ellwein
Date: 21:33:53 05/07/04
Go up one level in this thread
On May 07, 2004 at 19:10:49, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On May 07, 2004 at 11:16:30, Dan Ellwein wrote: > >>On May 07, 2004 at 04:19:21, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On May 07, 2004 at 01:03:20, Jouni Uski wrote: >>> >>>>Has You looked for that afterword? There is very short comment to Kasparov >>>>vs. Junior and Kramnik vs. Fritz. Hsu still claims DB was superior to >>>>Fritz/Junior in tactics! Really? >>>> >>>>Jouni >>> >>>Let me quote Bruce Moreland: "i would love to have a shot at deep blue in blitz, >>>i tactically will destroy it". >>> >>>This was with Ferret at a 4x 400Mhz PII machine. >>> >>>I agree with Bruce. >>> >>>We must be realistic. Deep Blue needed 3 minutes to get to 10 ply in openings >>>positions. In endgames it finished 12 ply a lot. Most middlegame positions >>>however it searched 10 - 11 ply. >> >>Vincent >>if that was the case... >>how was Deep Blue able to win a match from Garry K. > >Because Garry had a different agenda. a few minutes after the match kasparov was >live at CNN and praised the machine. A few hours later when he learned he would >not get automatically a rematch (in the world championship cycles in those years >there was a rule that automatically gives the worldchampion chess a rematch when >he loses his title), he was furious and said a lot of bad words which we all >know. > >But let me show you history. > >One of the most important chess matches ever, years of preparation for both >players. Kasparov playing against Karpov for world title. > >Kasparov brings the NOVELTY 5.Ng5! there which nowadays is the mainline. Years >of preparation into it for Kasparov in order to beat Karpov. See below. You sure >that when playing black against Deep Blue that Kasparov didn't know that 7..h6?? >is losing for black? > >[Event "Optiebeurs"] >[Site "Amsterdam"] >[Date "1988.05.??"] >[Round "4"] >[White "Kasparov,Garry"] >[Black "Karpov,Anatoly"] >[Result "1-0"] >[Eco "B17"] >1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5!!N (novelty) Ngf6 6.Bd3 e6 7.N1f3 >Bd6! (7..h6?? +-) 8.0-0 h6 >9.Ne4 Nxe4 10.Bxe4 0-0 11.c3 e5 12.Bc2 Re8 13.Re1 exd4 14.Rxe8+ Qxe8 15.Qxd4 Qe7 >16.Bf4 Bxf4 >17.Qxf4 Nf8 18.Re1 Be6 19.Nd4 Rd8 20.h4 Qc5 21.Re3 Qd6 22.Nxe6 fxe6 23.Qg4 Qd2 >24.Bb3 Kh8 >25.Re2 Qd6 26.g3 a6 27.Kg2 Re8 28.Re3 Re7 29.Rf3 Rd7 30.Qh5 Qe7 31.Qe5 Rd8 32.a4 >b5 >33.Qe4 Qc7 34.Rf4 c5 35.Qf3 Qd6 36.axb5 axb5 37.Rf7 Rb8 38.Ra7 b4 39.Bc2 bxc3 >40.bxc3 Qe5 >41.Rf7 Nh7 42.Qg4 Kg8 43.Re7 Nf8 44.Qf3 c4 45.Be4 Kh8 46.Bc6 Nh7 47.Qf7 Nf8 >48.Re8 Rxe8 >49.Bxe8 Nh7 50.Bd7 Nf6 51.Bxe6 h5 52.Bxc4 Qe4+ 53.Kh2 Kh7 54.Qe6 Qf3 55.Qe1 Ng4+ >56.Kg1 Qc6 >57.Bd3+ g6 58.Qe7+ Kh6 59.Be4 Qb6 60.Qf8+ Kh7 61.Qf7+ Kh6 62.c4 1-0 > >No one gave a penny for deep blue's chances in 1997. > >You can every day bet on chess games. See for example www.betsson.com, this is >just one of the many sites to bet on it. Russians bet on everything. > >You could earn millions betting on deep blue that last game in 1997. > >I'm not saying kasparov did do just that. > >What i do say is that he deliberately played a lost line with black. > >Why he did that i do not know. > >You draw your own conclusions. What i do know 100% sure is that kasparov knew he >was playing a losing line. > >For sure is also that about every 1900 rated caro-kann player and above knows >that h6?? is losing and that moves like Qe7 only make it worse. Because they >have read it in a book. Who wrote that book you guess? well, I must admit Vincent, this actually makes sense to me what you are saying definitely food for thought... my best Dan > >>my best >>Dan >>> >>>On average they claimed a search depth of 12.2 ply but this is not iterative >>>depth but 'observed' depth. So the singular extension depth added to it (not >>>qsearch i guess). >>> >>>10 ply with a singular extensions and threat extensions and mate extensions is >>>in theory tactical very strong. Certainly for 1997 standards. >>> >>>However in hardware they cannot do any dangerous extension. Not only Hsu >>>explicitly mentions it, also Chrilly has done very clear statements that >>>hardware search is *that* inefficient that he had to forward prune in hardware >>>in a very primitive way. Same for Deep Blue. In its 4 ply of hardware search it >>>forward pruned, and *had* to of course. Both cannot use any dangerous extensions >>>in hardware search. Deep Blue triggers the last one at 4 ply depth left. >>> >>>This where software products pick up incredible tactics last few plies. They see >>>just near to shit last few plies. >>> >>>So you can extend a lot in mainsearch, but 10 ply - 4 = 6 ply. So within 6 ply, >>>it should see everything then. >>> >>>Let's be clear, this in 2004 is not a realistic scenario. Hsu still lives in the >>>80s. He did live there in 1997 still. His machine didn't even use nullmove which >>>by 1995 had been clearly proven for every idiot on the planet as the way to go. >>> >>>Frans Morsch *publicly* did statements about recursive nullmove. During dinner >>>every programmer has heard it, i'm sure of it. >>> >>>What Hsu writes is utter nonsense.
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