Author: martin fierz
Date: 07:07:14 05/10/04
Go up one level in this thread
On May 10, 2004 at 09:26:22, Uri Blass wrote: >On May 10, 2004 at 08:38:14, martin fierz wrote: > >>On May 10, 2004 at 08:08:58, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On May 10, 2004 at 07:33:38, martin fierz wrote: >>> >>>>On May 10, 2004 at 05:20:38, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 10, 2004 at 05:00:46, martin fierz wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 08, 2004 at 11:51:12, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 08, 2004 at 10:50:57, Anthony Cozzie wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On May 08, 2004 at 07:18:27, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On May 08, 2004 at 04:34:40, Sune Fischer wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>You are absulutely right. >>>>>>>>>>>>It is obvious that humans already solved chess so they know if a move is a >>>>>>>>>>>>blunder or not a blunder so you can be sure that all the question marks are >>>>>>>>>>>>correct. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>It is also obvious that the number of mistakes is what decides the game so if >>>>>>>>>>>>your opponent did 2 mistakes you can let yourself to do one mistake like letting >>>>>>>>>>>>him to force mate and you are not going to lose. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>:_( >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>You know, Uri, I have never seen you do anything but post how other people are >>>>>>>>>>>wrong (never with any reasons of course). Many other people have noticed your >>>>>>>>>>>unending flood of negativity. It is difficult to consider this post as anything >>>>>>>>>>>other than a flame. It appears I am going to have to take off the kid gloves >>>>>>>>>>>and dispose of you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Isn't it natural to only post if you disagree? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Anyway, I suspect Uri has a point. >>>>>>>>>>It's not unusual for computers to play "unatural" moves, just think of the >>>>>>>>>>Hedgehog Junior played against Kasparov. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>All the time the GM's were saying how strange Junior's moves were, how "it >>>>>>>>>>showed no understanding of the position" blah blah blah. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>So please explain why Kasparov suddenly had to fight for a draw after 10 >>>>>>>>>>questionmark moves from Junior! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>-S. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I never thought this day would come - but I agree with Uri here. :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Sports aren't about beautiful play. Sports are about winning. If someone is >>>>>>>>>playing ugly, and winning, then it's your sense of aesthetics which needs to be >>>>>>>>>reviewed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Computers have a long history of winning ugly. In the recent Fritz-Kasparov and >>>>>>>>>Junior-Kasparov matches, the machines made many many more "mistakes" (according >>>>>>>>>to human opinion) than Kasparov. But - if these mistakes aren't punished - are >>>>>>>>>they really mistakes? Is it a mistake to leave Shaq wide open for three point >>>>>>>>>shots? (Or send him to the line for "free" throws?) It's impossible to speak >>>>>>>>>about objectivity here. You can only look at the results. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Vas >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Let's take a look at some of the moves the annotator didn't like: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>[D]r2q1rk1/pp1n1ppp/2pbpn2/3p3b/8/1P1PPNPP/PBPN1PB1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 10 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Zappa plays the obvious 10 ...e5. Deep Blue played 10 ...h6. I won't call this >>>>>>>>a bad move, but it's clearly a pass move. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That isn't very convincing. Did you look at _your_ PV? move 4? :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Order doesn't mean much to alpha/beta as it scores positions, not moves as they >>>>>>>are played. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>First impression is that h6 and e5 transpose to the _same_ position... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1... e6-e5 2. e3-e4 Rf8-e8 3. Rf1-e1 Ra8-c8 4. a2-a4 h7-h6 5. Bb2-c3 Qd8-c7 6. >>>>>>>>a4-a5 Bd6-c5 7. Qd1-b1 >>>>>>>> = (0.25) Depth: 12/34 00:01:09.00 41299kN >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>[D]r4rk1/pp1n1pp1/2pbpn1p/q2p3b/8/PP1PPNPP/1BPN1PB1/R3QRK1 b - - 0 12 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Once again Zappa wants e5. Deep Blue played Bc7, which is a pass move at best, >>>>>>>>and I would think the bishop is actually better on D6. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1... e6-e5 2. c2-c4 Qa5-a6 3. d3-d4 e5-e4 4. Nf3-h4 Ra8-e8 5. Nh4-f5 Bd6-c7 6. >>>>>>>>Ra1-c1 Nd7-b6 7. c4xd5 Nb6xd5 >>>>>>>> = (0.24) Depth: 11/32 00:00:49.38 30722kN >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Same comment. Look at your move 5. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You agree with DB more than you think... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>[D]r4rk1/ppbn1pp1/2p1pn1p/q2p3b/7N/PP1PP1PP/1BPN1PB1/R3QRK1 b - - 0 13 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And Zappa is still dying for e5 :) Deep Blue played g5?, which cannot be >>>>>>>>considered anything but a blunder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Kasparov said "this is black's only hope. Any other move simply loses. This >>>>>>>makes it a fight." >>>>>> >>>>>>which makes it pretty clear that before something already went wrong for >>>>>>black... if you have to play g5, even if it's still a fight, something is very >>>>>>wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>>cheers >>>>>> martin >>>>> >>>>>It is not clear for me. >>>>>I know that pushing pawns near the king is bad in a lot of cases but it is not >>>>>always bad and this is the reason that I do not have high scores against it. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>there are instances where pushing pawns in front of your king is ok. there are >>>>others where it's not ok. they are rather easy to distinguish most of the time >>>>(some simple rules are sufficient for this) and i'm surprised that you don't >>>>understand that it's not such a great idea here... i know you are a born >>>>skeptic, but perhaps you should learn to trust people with more experience >>>>sometimes :-) >>> >>> >>>The rules that I use in movei are based on attack information of squares near >>>the king. >>> >>>only not having pawns near the king leads to only a small panelty and it is not >>>enough to convince movei not to play g5. >> >>which basically means that movei is rather stupid in this respect :-) >> >>cheers >> martin > >I think that showing how people get advantage against chess programs after g5 >may be more convincing then claiming that the move is stupid without showing >evidence. feel free to believe whatever you want... just note that i said MOVEI is stupid in this respect, not the move ...g5. >I did not have time to test it but comp-comp games when the programs that play >g5 gets into trouble(evaluation of at least +0.5 pawn for the opponent) may be >also more convincing that black's position is bad. ...and feel free to believe that this is a better test than believing human experts. whatever makes you happy :-) cheers martin
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