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Subject: Re: Behind Deep Blue: 3rd print with new Hsu afterword

Author: Vasik Rajlich

Date: 14:35:05 05/10/04

Go up one level in this thread


On May 10, 2004 at 07:49:18, martin fierz wrote:

>On May 08, 2004 at 18:55:16, Djordje Vidanovic wrote:
>
>>On May 08, 2004 at 12:14:42, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>>
>>>On May 08, 2004 at 11:51:12, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On May 08, 2004 at 10:50:57, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On May 08, 2004 at 07:18:27, Vasik Rajlich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On May 08, 2004 at 04:34:40, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You are absulutely right.
>>>>>>>>>It is obvious that humans already solved chess so they know if a move is a
>>>>>>>>>blunder or not a blunder so you can be sure that all the question marks are
>>>>>>>>>correct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It is also obvious that the number of mistakes is what decides the game so if
>>>>>>>>>your opponent did 2 mistakes you can let yourself to do one mistake like letting
>>>>>>>>>him to force mate and you are not going to lose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>:_(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You know, Uri, I have never seen you do anything but post how other people are
>>>>>>>>wrong (never with any reasons of course).  Many other people have noticed your
>>>>>>>>unending flood of negativity.  It is difficult to consider this post as anything
>>>>>>>>other than a flame.  It appears I am going to have to take off the kid gloves
>>>>>>>>and dispose of you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Isn't it natural to only post if you disagree?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Anyway, I suspect Uri has a point.
>>>>>>>It's not unusual for computers to play "unatural" moves, just think of the
>>>>>>>Hedgehog Junior played against Kasparov.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All the time the GM's were saying how strange Junior's moves were, how "it
>>>>>>>showed no understanding of the position" blah blah blah.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So please explain why Kasparov suddenly had to fight for a draw after 10
>>>>>>>questionmark moves from Junior!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I never thought this day would come - but I agree with Uri here. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sports aren't about beautiful play. Sports are about winning. If someone is
>>>>>>playing ugly, and winning, then it's your sense of aesthetics which needs to be
>>>>>>reviewed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Computers have a long history of winning ugly. In the recent Fritz-Kasparov and
>>>>>>Junior-Kasparov matches, the machines made many many more "mistakes" (according
>>>>>>to human opinion) than Kasparov. But - if these mistakes aren't punished - are
>>>>>>they really mistakes? Is it a mistake to leave Shaq wide open for three point
>>>>>>shots? (Or send him to the line for "free" throws?) It's impossible to speak
>>>>>>about objectivity here. You can only look at the results.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Vas
>>>>>
>>>>>Let's take a look at some of the moves the annotator didn't like:
>>>>>
>>>>>[D]r2q1rk1/pp1n1ppp/2pbpn2/3p3b/8/1P1PPNPP/PBPN1PB1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 10
>>>>>
>>>>>Zappa plays the obvious 10 ...e5.  Deep Blue played 10 ...h6.  I won't call this
>>>>>a bad move, but it's clearly a pass move.
>>>>
>>>>That isn't very convincing.  Did you look at _your_ PV?  move 4?  :)
>>>>
>>>>Order doesn't mean much to alpha/beta as it scores positions, not moves as they
>>>>are played.
>>>>
>>>>First impression is that h6 and e5 transpose to the _same_ position...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>I will accept that my 4 ply search plays pass moves some of the time :)  Zappa
>>>uses pure R=3 now, and perhaps the evaluation isn't quite good enough for it.
>>>
>>>anthony
>>
>>
>>
>>In my opinion 10...h6 is not merely a pass move or waste of time.  White may
>>plan to push the g-pawn to g4 and drive the black bishop to g6 aiming to
>>exchange his knight for the bishop later, playing the knight to h4.  Thus
>>10...h6 gives black refuge.  Besides, the bishop positioned at h7 would be very
>>useful later on, perhaps after the push you mentioned that Zappa plays right
>>away, exerting pressure on the e4 square...
>>
>>Just an idea.  One glance at the diagram... Caveat emptor :-)
>
>hi vas,
>
>here's why ...h6 is wrong: just look what happens in the game: after Qe1 and
>Nh4, white is threatening g3-g4 and after ...Bg6 Nxg6 fxg6 it's clear that black
>has gone wrong. without ...h6 this just never happens, you just go back to g6
>and after Nxg6 recapture ...hxg6 with a solid position. that's why deep blue
>went ...g5 later, which it had to do, else the abovementioned line happens. so
>...g5 is not a blunder IMO, but before: Bc7 and Qa5 are ridiculous moves, doing
>nothing at all. it could have played Bg6 before Qe1+Nh4, for example. or gone
>for one of the standard plans with ....a5-a4 or e7-e5. all makes much more sense
>than what was played.
>i guess playing ...h6 and ...Bg6 is just a little slow compared to doing
>something active, so i would also call ....h6 a mistake, but i'd call Bc7 and
>Qa5 to be the real culprits here.
>
>cheers
> martin

For what it's worth - the game Junior 8-Shredder 7.04 from this position ended
drawn - with black having a clear advantage most of the way.

I'll post it with a new heading.

Cheers,
Vas



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