Author: Omid David Tabibi
Date: 13:41:21 05/19/04
Go up one level in this thread
On May 19, 2004 at 16:37:27, Matthew Hull wrote: >On May 19, 2004 at 16:22:09, Omid David Tabibi wrote: > >>On May 19, 2004 at 16:09:19, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On May 19, 2004 at 14:48:16, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>> >>>>On May 19, 2004 at 13:20:35, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 12:19:05, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 11:56:37, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 03:38:52, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On May 18, 2004 at 13:56:25, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On May 18, 2004 at 13:46:02, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I hope that makes it clear why _I_ have not said much about playing this year. >>>>>>>>>>>Who knows _what_ rule(s) the ICCA will use this time around. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I know. And I have told you many times. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>That is _really_ convincing. You guys don't even want to produce a list of who >>>>>>>>>is playing??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Check the WCCC page today. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Last time I looked _you_ didn't speak for the ICCA any more than the organizers >>>>>>>>>of the WCCC I tried to enter a couple of years back spoke for it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I don't know when or where you looked, or what happened in Paris or Jakarta that >>>>>>>>you frequently mention. What I know is about WCCC 2004, and I am telling you in >>>>>>>>the clearest possible way what will be the case here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'll run through this once more. Slowly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In Jakarta, there was _no_ outside communication. No game results. No nothing. >>>>>>> Dead silence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In Paris, same deal. No internet access. No nothing. I believe this was the >>>>>>>event where Thorsten was getting results out at his own expense via cell. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Two of the first two WMCCC's I ever participated in. While at every ACM and >>>>>>>WCCC event past 1980 we had outside world access. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Then For one of the more recent events, and no, now I don't even remember which >>>>>>>because I no longer care, I made arrangements to get a pretty good box (8-way >>>>>>>from Dell) and when they finally worked out the details for me, I tried to enter >>>>>>>and was told "We have a new rule that says that a programmer _must_ attend." >>>>>>>Bruce Moreland went to this event and can confirm all of this as he and I talked >>>>>>>about it multiple times. I then "undid" my machine arrangements, a bit >>>>>>>embarassing after having asked and having had some folks at Dell go out of the >>>>>>>way to help. Later Bruce tells me that a commercial entry could not get the >>>>>>>programmer there and the ICCA decided to drop the rule. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Doesn't that do wonders for my wanting to participate _again_?? Doesn't that >>>>>>>make me take what you say on behalf of the ICCA at something less than true face >>>>>>>value, since the rules get changed on a whim??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That is my problem. Later they _again_ modified this rule so that it became >>>>>>>possible to have a non-programmer operator, but at double the normal entry fee. >>>>>>>What is _that_ about? This is an organization that wants to promote computer >>>>>>>chess or throttle it? Is it all about the money going in to the ICCA? Or is >>>>>>>it about the computer chess competition and interest in same? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Looks _bad_ from my perspective. And when the last CCT had what appears to be >>>>>>>over 5x the entries of the current WCCC event, and there is no cost, and there >>>>>>>are no changing entry rules, and so forth, what is the incentive to go to a WCCC >>>>>>>rather than the next CCT event? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hopefully you get my drift. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I don't believe _any_ of this has put the ICCA in a particularly favorable >>>>>>>light. I guess those of us that originally formed this organization can just >>>>>>>carry on feeling embarassed about how the tournaments have been handled the past >>>>>>>few years. The journal is a good thing. But the tournament (which was >>>>>>>originally the 'flagship' of the ICCA) has gone steadily downhill. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>How would _you_ react to such utter nonsense??? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>It seems that indeed some points where unclear in some of the previous WCCCs. >>>>>>But again, I am only responsible for the current WCCC. And I am doing my best to >>>>>>clarify the things as much as possible. >>>>> >>>>>Yes you are. But as I mentioned _YOU_ are not the ICGA. Through at least 1992 >>>>>or so, "we programmers" had a strong voice in what happened. Somewhere around >>>>>1992-1995 things started to change however. >>>>> >>>> >>>>As long as it was about providing information, I replied to everything you >>>>asked. If it is about flamewars, I'm too busy to take part, sorry. >>> >>>I see no flame war from my end. I pointed out a _big_ ICCA problem. I ran into >>>it _personally_. And I have seen _nothing_ to date that is any sort of >>>guarantee that it won't happen again... >>> >>>IE, again, and you have not answered this, why double the entry fee for someone >>>that can't possibly attend any other way than with a remote operator? >> >>It is an old rule and the source of it might be as Gerd mentioned: >>http://talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?366100 >>The logic behind this rule is very clear: to encourage the programmers to attend >>in person (after all, it is a programmers event). >> >>If your operator must fly to Israel, then he will receive $500 grant for >>covering the ticket costs (assuming you register soon, as the grant is for the >>first 12 amateurs only). And you start complaining about 25 Euros? [sigh...] >> > >The wording says $500 for "programmers", not operators. So not only no $500, >but a doubling of entry fee. If you know better than me, so be it. >> >> >>>What is >>>the justification, the logic, the common sense, that would cause such an idea to >>>even be considered, much less put into place??? >>> >>>Did you know that I attended almost every ACM event from 1976 to 1994? Did you >>>know that my program played in the WCCC in 1977, 1983, 1986, and 1989? Do you >>>know what I had to pay in entry fees for all those events? Not one thin dime. >>>An entry fee is _pointless_ and only becomes an obstacle in an already expensive >>>operation. The ACM even paid all remote telephone costs in the pre-internet >>>days... All we had to do was arrange for our machine, and get ourselves to the >>>event. Sometimes the ACM even helped everyone with travel... >>> >>>Look at where we are today in contrast... >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>At the CCT we manage to have an _open_ discussion about the rules _before_ the >>>>>>>>>event, and then we go by those rules. The ICCA might try that at some point in >>>>>>>>>time, perhaps??? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I'd love to play remotely. Once it becomes obvious that doing so is "OK". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>We don't provide operators here. But if you send someone to operate Crafty on >>>>>>>>your behalf, that is OK. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have a volunteer that would do well. I'll investigate hardware one more time. >>>>>>> But I can guarantee you that if the rules change this time, it will be my >>>>>>>absolute last time to try this... >>>>>> >>>>>>If you send an operator here, there will be no problem.
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