Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 12:14:11 05/20/04
Go up one level in this thread
On May 20, 2004 at 11:13:16, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >On May 19, 2004 at 18:39:49, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On May 19, 2004 at 18:18:36, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >> >>>On May 19, 2004 at 18:08:44, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On May 19, 2004 at 17:18:11, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>> >>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 17:07:34, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 16:02:53, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 15:55:04, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 14:31:41, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 13:29:38, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 06:14:12, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 06:07:45, Bryan Hofmann wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 05:33:50, Richard Pijl wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On May 19, 2004 at 05:05:54, Jouni Uski wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Number 1 favourite is missing, why? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jouni >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Hydra is officially from the UAE. As I understood the sponsors do not allow >>>>>>>>>>>>>Hydra to participate in an event in Israel. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Richard. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Someone please tell me that this is a rumor or missunderstanding. They banned a >>>>>>>>>>>>chess engine from participation due to the country of its creator? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Exactly the opposite. We (organizers) told the Hydra team that they are welcomed >>>>>>>>>>>to play in Israel under the UAE flag. But apparently their sponsors decided that >>>>>>>>>>>they don't want to play in Israel. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Last time an engine was banned from participation due to the country of its >>>>>>>>>>>creator was in Jakarta WMCCC 1996. The Junior team was not allowed to play there >>>>>>>>>>>because Junior is an Israeli program. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I was under the impression that was not exactly the truth, the whold truth and >>>>>>>>>>nothing but the truth. In fact, Junior was expected there. I received a phone >>>>>>>>>>call in the wee hours of the morning from Bruce Moreland, asking me to help him >>>>>>>>>>contact Amir since they had not shown up. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I believe this was a case of "they didn't feel welcome and chose not to attend >>>>>>>>>>for that reason." IE I can't really fault someone for not wanting to fly a UAE >>>>>>>>>>flag in the middle of Israel either. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>So, IMHO it was more a matter of they didn't participate for many good reasons, >>>>>>>>>>but I don't think they were _prevented_ from participating... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Based on what I have read and heard, it was made clear to them that they cannot >>>>>>>>>play under the Israeli flag in Jakarta. In other words, they were prevented from >>>>>>>>>participation. Of course Amir or Shay can correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Probably was (a) a sane decision to not fly an Israeli flag there and (b) a >>>>>>>>reasonable decision for them not to attend if they could not. As I said, a bit >>>>>>>>of both... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I quoted Shay Bushinsky in the following post: >>>>>>>http://talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?366082 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Based on that, it was not a decision on behalf of the Junior team not to attend, >>>>>>>they were simply *banned* from participation. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>reread what you posted. They were not "banned". >>>>>> >>>>>>Unless you redefine banned to mean something other than "not allowed". As I >>>>>>said, they could have participated, not representing Israel. >>>>> >>>>>"not representing Israel", in other words *banned* from playing as Israeli >>>>>representatives. What's hard to understand about that? >>>> >>>>Are you really that dense, or just acting so to prolong a discussion? >>>> >>>>"banned" means "not allowed to participate, _period_. It does not mean "not >>>>allowed to participate under flag XXX or anything else". It means "not allowed >>>>to participate." >>> >>>Junior is an Israeli program, and both its authors are Israeli. Saying that it >>>is not allowed to play as an Israeli program is equal to saying it is not >>>allowed to play at all. >> >>Not really. IE if I play, I don't _really_ represent the USA in any official >>capacity. I just happen to live here. I could play without a US flag over my >>monitor if I wanted to... > >What if you were denied entry because of your US passport? Then the question becomes "Is there any other alternative way to enter?" and if the answer is yes, then "do I really want to do that?" But I would not call myself "banned". Banned means absolutely forbidden entry. I would say "I was greatly hindered or discouraged from entering." > >The Junior team was denied entry visa. Or if you would like *banned* from >entering Indonesia. Now you will of course explain that they still *chose* not >to participate, because they could have entered the country illegaly from the >sea... Please read Amir's response. If you are banned, you have _no_ opportunity to attend. If there is any possibility of attending, no matter how difficult or distasteful, then you are not banned. If you want to say "virtually banned" that is ok. But banned has a very precise meaning. Just like "depth-first search" to name another great debate on the mis-use of a word or expression. > > >> >>But, as I said, if it were a choice, I probably would _not_ play. But I would >>not say "I was banned"... >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>What is so hard to understand about using _proper_ definitions and terms? >>>> >>>>Yes they were _hindered_ from participating. Or they were even discouraged from >>>>participating. But they were not _banned_ from participating... >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>The Hydra team was explicitly told that they are welcome to play under the UAE >>>>>flag. >>>>> >>>>>P.S. Of course I'm not criticizing the Hydra team, as they wanted to join. The >>>>>guys who prevented that were their UAE sponsors. >>>> >>>>Both decisions to not play are reasonable... >>> >>>There is a huge difference between not being allowed to play, and choosing not >>>to play. >>> >>>A few days ago FIFA asked Libya to withdraw its bid to host the 2010 Football >>>World Cup because it refused to allow Israel to play there. >>> >>>From New York Times: >>>"... while Libya, another long-shot candidate, was deemed unqualified yesterday. >>>The Agence France-Presse news agency reported that Libya withdrew after saying >>>it would not allow Israel to participate if the Israelis qualified for the 2010 >>>tournament." >> >> >>"not allowed to participate" --> banned. >> >>But that wasn't the case with Junior as I have pointed out repeatedly. >> >>There _is_ a difference. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>>See also: >>> >>>Libya: Israel not welcome >>>http://www.news24.com/News24/Sport/SA_2010_bid/0,,2-9-1606_1527597,00.html >>> >>>How Israel cost Libya the 2010 World Cup >>>http://www.iol.co.za/topfive.php?URL_to=/index.php?click_id=19&art_id=qw1084624380330B226&set_id=1 >>> >>> >>>I'm sure Libya wouldn't have any problem if the Israeli team decided to >>>represent Burkina Faso, Micronesia, or another country instead... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I don't like that >>>>>>option and as I also said, I considered their not showing up as "a reasonable >>>>>>decision". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I don't want >>>>>>>>>>>>to lead the discussion into a political debate here but if the above statement >>>>>>>>>>>>is true, this bigotry should not be condoned and further posting of this event >>>>>>>>>>>>should not be allowed here.
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