Author: Lanny DiBartolomeo
Date: 15:07:35 12/18/98
Go up one level in this thread
On December 18, 1998 at 17:43:10, Komputer Korner wrote:
>On December 18, 1998 at 16:59:06, Lanny DiBartolomeo wrote:
>
>>On December 18, 1998 at 16:43:19, Komputer Korner wrote:
>>
>>>On December 18, 1998 at 15:27:03, Lanny DiBartolomeo wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 18, 1998 at 03:21:48, Komputer Korner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On December 17, 1998 at 11:16:06, Lanny DiBartolomeo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On December 17, 1998 at 03:50:20, Komputer Korner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On December 17, 1998 at 02:05:47, Richard A. Fowell (fowell@netcom.com) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>But not being able to view the engine's score & analysis while moving back and
>>>>>>>>>forth in a game is a serious flaw. As a tournament chess player, this is the
>>>>>>>>>*only* feature I care about (other than engine strength) when analyzing my
>>>>>>>>>games...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--Peter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What about:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>(1) The ability to have your tournament games analyzed overnight.
>>>>>>>>(2) The ability to search for strong alternatives ("Next Best") in positions.
>>>>>>>>(3) The ability to save the "engine's score & analysis while moving back
>>>>>>>> and forth in a game" in some permanent form (save to disk, or printer).
>>>>>>>> It seems several programs don't offer this feature - if the information
>>>>>>>> is worth seeing, I would think it would be worth saving.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Richard A. Fowell
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All are nice features. No. 1 and 2 are provided by almost every top program but
>>>>>>>No. 2 and No. 3 are not available in CM6000. Only programs like Crafty and
>>>>>>>Shredder have the 3rd feature. However, because CM6000 lacks the ability to
>>>>>>>show engine analysis when taking back moves and moving forward in player player
>>>>>>>mode (which is the single most important computer chess feature for serious
>>>>>>>tournament chess players) that is the reason I called it a toy. Opening book
>>>>>>>editors are not important for some but the one it has is a joke.
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>Komputer Korner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Interesting, What do you consider a serious tournament chess players?
>>>>>>I think people study in different ways, I after playing a game will have it
>>>>>>looked over by cm6000 and then will look at its score for each move and see
>>>>>>where it thinks I could have done better I do this for a number of games and
>>>>>>look for patterns of mistakes (like if I get into trouble when Knights are
>>>>>>hovering ) If this weakness shows up in a few games then I work this out.
>>>>>>other features (rate my play) a nice way for chess improvement at ALL LEVELS
>>>>>>tornament playing and using the customised engines to simulate the problem
>>>>>>player you need to work against an example you have trouble with an attacking
>>>>>>player then you can play against one like Tal or use tal settings and change
>>>>>>them up a little till its how you like and so on.There is more than enough
>>>>>>here.Also I really think that too many people are waisting there time with all
>>>>>>this booking up, the concentration should be in middle game puzzles tactical and
>>>>>>positional. How do you think these programs are this strong from book? it helps
>>>>>>but it wont save your life!There as strong as they are mainly because of
>>>>>>Tactical Abilities.So you can keep your opening book editor and your back and
>>>>>>forth move analyser (if this gets added in Fantastic!)but if not there is more
>>>>>>than enough to get extremely strong with! If I need back and forth analyser at
>>>>>>some point because I cant figure it out on my own, then good ol fritz5 to the
>>>>>>rescue a tool I do use also. Yes I do study openings but is not a major concern
>>>>>>for me, when I hit IM it will be or if i feel it is hendering my improvement,but
>>>>>>I end up in pretty comfortable positions so I doubt that.
>>>>>
>>>>>You aren't studing chess properly and you are too lazy to do it. Your number one
>>>>>activity should be back and forth analysis of your games. Your statement "if you
>>>>>need to do it" shows that you aren't really serious about improving your game.
>>>>>--
>>>>>Komputer Korner
>>>>
>>>>one other point I would like to make there was no such thing as back and forth
>>>>analysis of a position not too long ago the only thing you could do is figure
>>>>it out on your own and Like myself and friends do after we play I do go over my
>>>>games as I stated and search for patterns flaws in my games I look for
>>>>weaknesses in the endings and I lso play my games at 40/2hrs 1 if lucky 2 a day
>>>>and in the opening if I went wrong there I learn from it not by the move per say
>>>>but by the way I thought of the move I A.over looked a tactic B.didnt value
>>>>enough on center control so on and so on once I feel I have totally gotten where
>>>>I want to then I will start booking up and again sooner if I feelnot doing it is
>>>>hindering my improvement in some way.
>>>
>>>That is exactly the point. You are stuck in the stone age of analyzing if you
>>>don't use a computer to do this. However if you really think about it it has
>>>always existed. Serious players have always gone over their games by back and
>>>forwards analysis. It just took a lot longer and they missed things without
>>>computers to help them. That is why even Kasparov does this with the help of
>>>computers. Of course he doesn't miss any positional moves but he misses an
>>>occaisional tactical shot that the computer may find. For us peons we miss
>>>everything so that is why now for the first time in history we each have the
>>>chance to improve our game with a "teacher" sitting over our shoulder. Of course
>>>explanations would be even better but there is still no substitute for a human
>>>teacher as of yet. My point is use computer chess programs to their fullest.
>>>--
>>>Komputer Korner
>>Ok I see what your saying but mabey its the way I think about it I try to do my
>>own analysis at the same time I am letting cm analyse my game then when its done
>>i compair the 2 to see how close and go over the move by move lines it gives and
>>see where that takes me.Ive never with any consistancy tried the way your saying
>>.If you could could you explain in more detail how to use it the way the GMs are
>>doing it?
>
>
>Before I give you advice on this I am assuming the following things:
>1)You are trying to get help from a human master or else you can't afford one.
>2) You have read chess books widely and that you have gone over all the Chess
>Mentor modules or else you can't afford to buy them.
>3) You have played an OTB tournament.
>4) You lost at least one game in that tournament.
>5) You seriously want to improve and you have the time.
>6) You have studied openings enough to have made your own opening repertoire and
>you studt that repertoire constantly so that you don't get lost right in the
>opening.
>
>So here is what I do when I have the time which I don't have anymore.
>1) Look at your opening repertoire and look at the critical positions by trying
>out different moves and have the computer play both sides if you have to to find
>out good moves or plans. Move forward and backward on each opening position to
>find out which are the strongest lines using the Pvs and score eval. This takes
>a lot of work and is never really finished. You will be doing this forever.
>2) Go over all your latest tournament games using the above method on positions
>out of the opening and notice where the computer engine is suggesting a better
>move. Take bach moves and keep trying alternatives and play these out against
>the engine to see why the moves are bad or good.
>
>You can spend a lot of time on No. 2.
> Probably 40% of your studying time should be spent analyzing your games this
>way and 25% of your time on No. 1 (Openings) and 10% on endings and 25% of your
>time studying tutorials like Chess Mentor and Chess Academy. People will argue
>about the % for each activity but nevertheless you have to study your own games
>to see where you went wrong.
>--
>Komputer Korner
Sorry no you I believe you misunderstood me I know about repetoir I am a master
Rated player so as the teacher thing goes Im ok (for now, could always learn!) I
was meaning only about the back and forth, method I move and follow suggested
lines the computer gives and test different moves I think would be good like
this from a certain position is this it in a nutshell?
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