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Subject: Re: Opinions? A Crafty experiment...

Author: Russell Reagan

Date: 12:12:01 05/25/04

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On May 25, 2004 at 14:33:31, Dann Corbit wrote:

>I doubt that very much.  There are some engines that vary in strength with time
>control, but it is generally at the blitz level where these transitions take
>place.  An engine that scores 30% at G/40 will probably score 30% at G/120 and
>at 40/2 against the same opponent.


I'll test it. What engines would you like me to use?


>I suspect that you saw it happen once or twice and are now extrapolating the
>result in your mind.


Yes, maybe. I need to test the idea some more.


>If the effect were profound, wouldn't Crafty score 50% against Shredder in the
>SSDF?


I don't understand the reasoning here. The effect may only be subtle. I don't
even know if it is testable in practical time.


>The reason an engine might pick up strength at longer time controls is that it
>has a better fundamental algorithm, but it is poorly microoptimized.


What about diminishing returns? If we plotted the results of matches with
respect to time (ex. 30%, 35%, 38%, etc.), what do the curves look like? At the
beginning of the curve, the slow program with a superior algorithm won't fit the
overall pattern, but I'm after the overall shape of the curve, where it levels
off (or if it levels off), and things like that.


>A great painter paints a picture in a month.  The same painter paints a picture
>in ten minutes.  I am guessing that the slower time of painting made a much
>better picture.
>
>When I play a chess engine contest, I want the result to be art, not comedy.
>For me (though not for the majority) high speed blitz games are a crime against
>humanity.
>
>It is not the end point (who won?) that is interesting to me.  It is the journey
>along the way.


This is where we differ somewhat. I am not uninterested in the quality of the
games, but I am more interested in the outcome of the match and finding out who
is better. A G/30 match might be of lower quality, but in general it will
probably produce the same winner as a G/120 match, don't you think?

I am thinking about this from the point of view of an engine developer. If I can
reliably tell which engine is stronger in 1/10th of the time, without having to
play G/120 matches for weeks, then that will benefit me greatly in finding out
whether changes to the engine are improvements, and the engine will improve more
quickly.

In that respect, I think longer games tell us less about which engine is better,
and about whether a change was really an improvement. I may be wrong though. It
is just an idea.



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