Author: Albert Silver
Date: 05:17:09 12/19/98
Go up one level in this thread
On December 18, 1998 at 16:16:06, Komputer Korner wrote:
>On December 18, 1998 at 12:21:54, Christopher R. Dorr wrote:
>
>>On December 18, 1998 at 02:54:53, Komputer Korner wrote:
>>
>>>On December 17, 1998 at 09:50:25, Christopher R. Dorr wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 16, 1998 at 17:11:20, Komputer Korner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>This is good news about the CM7 opening book editor, but if they don't also add
>>>>>the capability of analyzing in player player mode with the engine showing on
>>>>>screen analysis and score eval while taking back and moving forward moves, then
>>>>>ChessMaster will still remain a toy program. This is the single most important
>>>>>feature in chess programs which all the high end programs have.
>>>>>--
>>>>>Komputer Korner
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>KK, exactly why do *you* get to decide what's the "single most important
>>>>feature"? I've said it before, and I'm saying it again: I'm a USCF Master
>>>>(pretty strong and serious), and I haven't used this feature in at least a year.
>>>>My best friend is a USCF Master...he doesn't use it either. Our City Champion is
>>>>a USCF 2300, and I asked him what he uses his computer for...he uses it to play
>>>>games, and to analyse games from his students.
>>>>
>>>>So tell me....since we three serious, master-level players don't consider this
>>>>feature very important *at all*, exactly how is it the 'single most important'
>>>>feature?
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I know that you know chess software, but you simply don't speak for all (or
>>>>probably evenb a majority) of computer-using chess players?
>>>>
>>>>Your obsessing on features that many consider trivial (opening book editor, this
>>>>analysis mode) detracts from your toherwise informative and even-handed analysis
>>>>of these programs.
>>>>
>>>>Chris Dorr
>>>>USCF Life Master
>>>
>>>Well then you simply aren't using computers to their fullest extent in helping
>>>you study chess. I don't care what your rating is. Even Kasparov uses player
>>>player mode with on screen PV analysis to look at positions. He isn't looking at
>>>the score evaluation of course but he is certainly looking at the PVs. Buy a top
>>>rated prgram like Rebel 10, M-Chess Pro 8 , Junior 5 or the upcoming Hiarcs 7
>>>and use them properly to analyze positions and you will begin to understand how
>>>to study chess with chess engines. Perhaps an opening book editor isn't that
>>>important for some even though it has helped me win more than 1 game, but
>>>analysis in player player mode with on screen analysis of PVs IS the most
>>>important feature of a chess program. CM 6000 doesn't have that. It could be
>>>possible to set up a macro with an add on utility as Richard Fowell says to work
>>>around this but since all top chess programs have this feature, then I have the
>>>right to call CM6000 a toy program without that feature.
>>>--
>>>Komputer Korner
>>
>>KK, you obviously have the right to call *any* program a 'toy program', or
>>anything else you want, for that matter. The problem lies in that by using these
>>words you imply something derogatory about the program.
>>
>>This derogation is based on a feature that many people simply don't use. Many
>>people simply want *almost exactly* what CM6K offers. They don't care about
>>opening book editors, or on screen analysis. They want tutorials, or a database,
>>or customizability, or playing strength. If these are the things that a person
>>is looking for, then *these* are the MOST important features for that person.
>>CM6K Offers exactly what I would want my USCF 900-1500 rated students to have.
>>These people make up the *vast* majority of chess players (even the large
>>majority of 'serious' tournament players. It is easy to setup, has a nice
>>database, has good handicapping features, and a variety of opponents to play,
>>and is cheap. Perhaps it would be *nice* if it had the things you are
>>complaining about (just as it would be *nice* for Fritz 5 to have a standard
>>Windows interface and play nice with other programs, or for Rebel 10 to be a
>>Windows program), but *none* of these features are critical, especially to those
>>who would never use them or worry about them.
>>
>>And about not using the computer to it's fullest potential...who does? My
>>computer is a tool; my chess programs are a tool. They entertain me, or they
>>educate me. My computer and programs are no different, in this respect, from my
>>TV or my hammer.
>>
>>Who cares if I am using my hammer "to it's fullest potential". I care about
>>whether it does what I need it to do. And that is different from what a
>>professional carpenter would need it to do. My hammer isn't a 'toy' because it
>>does something differently.
>>
>>I don't care if my TV has all the neatest 30,000 features that the most
>>expensive one does. Doe my TV meet my needs? If it does, then it is the right
>>one for me.
>>
>>Does CM6K meet my needs? If it does, then it is the right one for me. I believe
>>labeling CM6K a toy because it doesn't have all the features that you would want
>>in a perfect program is as unfair as someone labeling your reviews (which are
>>generally excellent) a 'pretend' review' or an 'amateur' review simply because
>>they don't like the way you do them, or don't like what you say.
>>
>>Words *do* matter; calling CM6K a "toy" program was bound to evoke a response;
>>and it served no other purpose than to inflame. Your reviews clearly indicate
>>how you feel about this program. Is it really necessary to put it this way?
>>
>>Chris Dorr
>>USCF Life Master
>
>You are right but to the tournament player, CM 6000 is a toy chess program. You
>being a tournament player should realize this and if you aren't using the player
>player mode analysis features of top level programs, then you are missing out on
>what chess programs can do for you.
>--
>Komputer Korner
Although I agree with you (KK) that CM6000 is not comparable to top chess
programs, I still wouldn't qualify it as a toy program. Just a program that is
intended for a different group of users. It's because it has *some* features of
top programs that it really hits the gray area, I guess, but I doubt it was
designed with the Master player (apart from playing strength) in mind.
Albert Silver
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