Computer Chess Club Archives




Subject: Re: legal nalimov egtb status

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 13:59:42 06/07/04

Go up one level in this thread

On June 07, 2004 at 10:13:08, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:

>On June 06, 2004 at 05:41:03, GuyHaworth wrote:
>>A richer context for your question would be informative:
>>a)  What do the German Police say in their letter?
>>    A good translation into English would be helpful
>basically the police says they want eye witness reports whether someone managed
>to obtain via ebay a chessproduct called 'nalimov egtb's'.
>they do as if it is a 'chessproduct'.
>this where we all know it's a collection of EGTB files.
>>b)  What is the 'relationship' between the 11 Tablebase CDs you bought ...
>>    ... and Chessbase offerings.
>the relationship is that not chessbase earned on these cdroms but others, so
>they file a complaint.
>>    [ I am assuming that the concern is related to Chessbase here. ]
>>The national and international nuances of the law here are something I should
>>know more about.  There are, I believe, international initiatives to harmonise
>it is very simple, if nalimov says there is no copyrights on his EGTBs and
>everybody can copy them for free, then you can do so, and free software
>distributors can charge small copy costs for the egtbs.
>if nalimov says there is authorship on his egtb's and only chessbase has the
>right to sell it, it means that if he can prove he has not done statements
>before that say something else, that the person in question offering them
>'systematically' at ebay will go to jail.
>It's not chessbase sueing, it's the police who investigates whether someone has
>sold illegal cdroms. it explicitly mentions the cdroms are not 'copies' but
>'professional made' cdroms.
>>the law on copyright and 'electronic theft'.
>every state in europe has different laws here. some countries go further than
>>Unless Chessbase have 'watermarked' their published version of Eugene's files -
>>and I don't think the 'header' of the file allows for that - there is no way
>>afaik to tell whether an 'EN table' has come from Chessbase's CD or been ftp'd
>>from the web.
>if the egtb files fall under the author right, because nalimov has himself
>generated them, then the case is more complicated.
>>Chessbase 'provide value' in that they:
>>a)  deliver the tables to you and save you download time
>you refer to the 'copy costs' which is true in case nalimov doesn't do claims
>which are validated. In other cases things are not so easy and very complicated
>from a law viewpoint.
>For example you are not allowed to sell a cd with selftaken pictures in GIF
>format, because GIF is a patented file format.
>(i deliberately say pictures and not mp3's, because music things are complete
>crazy with the music maffia organized within RIAAA, i've been negotiating with
>those chaps in the past myself so i can be a witness that the organisations
>under that umbrella BUMRA/STEMRA/SEMA in netherlands they are completely away
>from this planet and avoid good popsongs from even having good instrumental
>music; they must all use synthezisers because if you do not use them the music
>maffia will ask money for each instrument that is played by a person X who once
>signs up with them).
>>b)  provide you with CD-storage, useful if you want to later delete the files
>>        ok:  it's not as inexpensive as buying your own blank CDs
>>c)  provide assurance that the EN tables are 'correct'
>>        well, I would have said this until recently re the 6-man glitch
>>So, clearly, their _collection_ and _publication_ of tables benefits from
>>copyright protection, even though the individual tables do not.
>Things are not so clear at all. the only clear thing is that when Nalimov says
>he never has sold rights to chessbase to sell the EGTBs, but that everyone is
>free to copy the files, that there is no more police criminal investigation into
>this matter.
>I expect however Nalimov to say nothing, as usual, and then things remain
>I do not know the person in question who sold things on ebay, but i can assure
>you he makes a chance to go to jail there in germany when nalimov says chessbase
>has the legal right to sell them and no one else.

If I didn't know better I'd suspect the claim revolves around person A buying a
set of CDs, then copying the contents to his computer, then selling the set of
CDs on Ebay.  _that_ would make sense although I have a hard time believing it
would come close to standing up in court since the exact same data is available
on my ftp box here absolutely free.  And if I copy tables off a purchased CD,
the tables are _not_ the product or property of the CD maker...  And there is no
way to say "this table came from Hyatt's ftp site and _this_ table came from our

This ought to be interesting to watch to see who is doing what to whom, and

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