Author: Derek Paquette
Date: 18:00:16 06/09/04
Go up one level in this thread
On June 09, 2004 at 20:56:50, Dann Corbit wrote: >On June 09, 2004 at 20:44:21, Derek Paquette wrote: > >>On June 09, 2004 at 20:29:43, Derek Paquette wrote: >> >>>On June 09, 2004 at 20:24:52, Dann Corbit wrote: >>> >>>>On June 09, 2004 at 19:27:37, Derek Paquette wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 09, 2004 at 19:23:11, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On June 09, 2004 at 19:07:39, Derek Paquette wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On June 09, 2004 at 18:49:40, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Taking on a 3400+ AMD 64 with 2 GB RAM and Fritz 8 >>>>>>>>http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1703 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>this is very annoying for someone who is a chess enthusiast like myself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>why would the company that is marketting this laptop, RISK using a program that >>>>>>>is 40 elo LOWER? >>>>>>>i just dont' get it, >>>>>>>i think it comes down to plain old ignorance of chess programs >>>>>>>why NOT use shredder 8? >>>>>>>this is very frusterating, because we never get to see shredder 8 in action vs >>>>>>>grandmasters at tournament time controls. >>>>>> >>>>>>Probably, they have a good reason. >>>>>>For instance, they might take 7.04 and analyze every game she has every played >>>>>>at very slow time control. Now, they have a database and expected response for >>>>>>most of the moves she is likely to make. >>>>>> >>>>>>Perhaps the analysis started long ago. They know for sure exactly how it would >>>>>>work with 7.04 >>>>>> >>>>>>Bleeding edge is not always the best thing, if you want a reliable outcome. >>>>>>For the same reason, we won't always see the fastest possible hardware. It >>>>>>could be that the fastest stuff has not been tested. It would be a mistake to >>>>>>try an untested system. >>>>> >>>>>that is very true, if shredder 8 was released last week, HOWEVER, >>>>>shredder 8 has been released long enough for the following to happen, >>>>>SSDF has had enough time to test it >>>>>ICC is full of shredder 8 (and it turning humans into mince meat) >>>>> >>>>>that is enough to say that the program is well tested, and that it would kick >>>>>the crap out of a human, because its certainly beating around fritz 8. >>>> >>>>It it not known whether Fritz 8 would do better against humans than Shredder 8. >>>> >>>>We might surmise it from SSDF and WMCCC results, but that is really an >>>>extrapolation that may not be correct. >>>> >>>>At any rate, even the SSDF Elo strength rating also does not decide who is >>>>stronger: >>>> >>>> THE SSDF RATING LIST 2004-04-22 97872 games played by 264 computers >>>> Rating + - Games Won Oppo >>>> ------ --- --- ----- --- ---- >>>> 1 Shredder 8.0 CB 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2818 34 -32 481 70% 2673 >>>> 2 Shredder 7.04 UCI 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2809 24 -23 967 71% 2648 >>>> 3 Deep Fritz 8.0 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2790 26 -25 855 72% 2625 >>>> >>>>2818 - 32 = 2786 >>>>2790 + 26 = 2816 >>> >>>two things, >>>1. it was fritz8, not df8 >>>2. it is only logical to surmise that s8 would do better vs humans as it's >>>performance vs programs is higher, >>>it is the only concrete proof we have, and so our only practical and ratinoal >>>guess would be that s8 does aswell, >>>anyting else would be coming out of thin air. >> >> >>just to add to what i said, there is a 59 point elo difference between fritz 8 >>and Shredder 8 according to the SSDF, in my opinion it was foolhardy to actually >>use fritz 8 instead of shredder 8, >> >>59 isn't small potatoes if you ask me, could be the difference between a draw >>and a win. > >1. It is less than the level of uncertainty, though Shredder is probably >slightly stronger. > >2. It is measured using computers against computers. How does this translate >to humans against humans? Nobody knows. Probably there is some kind of >correlation but we do not know what it is (if any). > >There is no way for you to know which program will do better against humans. >You are making an educated guess. yes precisely based off the only knowledge we have, comp vs comp.
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