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Subject: Re: King hunt and draws

Author: Mridul Muralidharan

Date: 06:36:33 06/14/04

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On June 14, 2004 at 02:22:40, Uri Blass wrote:

>On June 14, 2004 at 02:06:17, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On June 14, 2004 at 01:25:57, Mridul Muralidharan wrote:
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>  I have been following the games of my engine and one very painful thing is to
>>>see it fall from +4.x to 0.0 due to a king hunt by opponent.
>>>Some programs like yace , frenzee (atleast in one the games I saw) , etc seem to
>>>identify this correctly and immediately take the eval down to 0.0 - this is not
>>>a search depth thing.
>>>My engine on the other hand needs a few moves to see the inevitability of the
>>>position.
>>>I am sure it might not be always possible to detect a king hunt always with 100%
>>>accuracy , but any general tips , comments to get me started would be great !
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>Mridul
>>>
>>>PS : Here is a game at icc today morning where it happens again from my winboard
>>>saved game : the comments are also present which give an idea of the evals by
>>>both engines.
>>>
>>>For my initial look :
>>>
>>>[D] 6rk/pnp2p1n/1p1p3p/3PpN1q/4P1r1/2P1Q1B1/P1P2PP1/1R2R1K1 b - - 0 24
>>>
>>>Here , Ng5 gets played since borer does not understand that the position might
>>>lead to a draw !
>>
>>I do not think that the game moves after Ng5 are forced from black point of
>>view.
>>
>>30...Qh1+ lead to a draw but yace suggests 30...Rg3 with evaluation of advantage
>>for black
>>
>>PostModernist - witchess, ICS rated standard match 2004
>>[D]7k/pnp2p2/1p1p3p/3Pp3/4P3/2P1QP1q/P1P1R1r1/1R2K3 b - - 0 1
>>
>>Analysis by Yace Paderborn:
>>
>>30...Rxe2+ 31.Kxe2
>>  ±  (0.88)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...Rh2 31.Rxh2 Qxh2
>>  ±  (0.80)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...h5 31.Rxg2 Qxg2
>>  ±  (0.76)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...Qg3+ 31.Kd2
>>  ²  (0.65)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...Qg3+ 31.Kd2
>>  ²  (0.65)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Qg1
>>  ²  (0.29)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8
>>  -+  (-3.15)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8
>>  -+  (-3.15)   Depth: 1   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8
>>  -+  (-3.15)   Depth: 2   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8
>>  -+  (-3.15)   Depth: 2   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8
>>  -+  (-3.15)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8
>>  -+  (-3.15)   Depth: 3   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8
>>  -+  (-3.31)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8
>>  -+  (-3.31)   Depth: 4   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8 35.Qh6+ Ke8 36.Qh8+
>>Kd7
>>  -+  (-3.57)   Depth: 5   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8 35.Qh6+ Ke8 36.Qh8+
>>Kd7
>>  -+  (-3.57)   Depth: 5   00:00:00
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Qxe2 Qxb1 33.Qa6 Nc5 34.Qc8+ Kg7 35.Qxc7 Qxa2 36.Qxd6
>>  -+  (-3.43)   Depth: 6/18   00:00:00  41kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Qxe2 Qxb1 33.Qa6 Nc5 34.Qc8+ Kg7 35.Qxc7 Qxa2 36.Qxd6
>>  -+  (-3.43)   Depth: 6/19   00:00:00  63kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Qxe2 Qxb1 33.Qa6 Nc5 34.Qc8+ Kg7 35.Qxc7 Qxa2 36.Qxd6
>>  -+  (-3.43)   Depth: 7/19   00:00:00  92kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Qxe2 Qxb1 33.Qa6 Nc5 34.Qc8+ Kg7 35.Qxc7 Qxa2 36.Qxd6
>>  -+  (-3.43)   Depth: 7/26   00:00:00  188kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Qxe2 Qxb1 33.Qa6 Qg1 34.Qxb7 Qf2+ 35.Kc1 Qxf3
>>  -+  (-3.03)   Depth: 8/26   00:00:00  237kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8 35.Qh6+ Ke8 36.Qh8+
>>Kd7 37.Qh3+ Ke7 38.Qh4+ f6 39.Qh7+ Kd8 40.Qg8+ Kd7 41.Qe6+ Kd8 42.Qxf6+ Kd7
>>43.Qf7+ Kc8 44.Qe6+ Kd8
>>  -+  (-2.65)   Depth: 8/26   00:00:01  304kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8 35.Qh6+ Ke8 36.Qh8+
>>Kd7 37.Qh3+ Ke7 38.Qh4+ f6 39.Qh7+ Kd8 40.Qg8+ Kd7 41.Qe6+ Kd8 42.Qxf6+ Kd7
>>43.Qf7+ Kc8 44.Qe6+ Kd8
>>  -+  (-2.65)   Depth: 8/30   00:00:01  623kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8 35.Qh6+ Ke8 36.Qh8+
>>Kd7 37.Qh3+ Kd8 38.Qh4+ Kc8 39.Qg4+ Kb8 40.Qg8+ Nd8 41.Qxd8+ Kb7
>>  -+  (-2.25)   Depth: 9/30   00:00:02  679kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8 35.Qh6+ Ke8 36.Qh8+
>>Kd7 37.Qh3+ Kd8 38.Qh4+ Kc8 39.Qg4+ Kb8 40.Qg8+ Nd8 41.Qxd8+ Kb7
>>  µ  (-1.25)   Depth: 9/31   00:00:02  707kN
>>30...Qh1+ 31.Kd2 Rxe2+ 32.Kxe2 Qxb1 33.Qxh6+ Kg8 34.Qg5+ Kf8 35.Qh6+ Ke8 36.Qh8+
>>Kd7 37.Qh3+ Kd8 38.Qh8+ Ke7 39.Qh4+ Kd7 40.Qh3+ Kd8 41.Qh8+ Ke7 42.Qh4+ Kd7
>>43.Qh3+
>>  =  (0.00)   Depth: 9/32   00:00:02  761kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Rxf3 32.Qxh6+ Qxh6+ 33.Re3
>>  =  (-0.01)   Depth: 9/32   00:00:03  1451kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Na5 32.Qd3 Rxf3 33.Qb5 Rxc3 34.Qe8+ Kg7 35.Rg1+ Rg3 36.Re3
>>  ³  (-0.53)   Depth: 9/32   00:00:05  2271kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Na5 32.Qd3 Rxf3 33.Qb5 Rxc3 34.Qe8+ Kg7 35.Rg1+ Rg3 36.Re3
>>  ³  (-0.53)   Depth: 9/32   00:00:07  3085kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Rxf3 32.Qg1 Qh4 33.Qh2 Qg5+ 34.Ke1 Nc5 35.c4 Qg3+ 36.Qxg3 Rxg3
>>37.Rb5
>>  ³  (-0.52)   Depth: 10/32   00:00:11  4393kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Rxf3 32.Qg1 Qh4 33.Qh2 Qg5+ 34.Ke1 Nc5 35.c4 Qg3+ 36.Qxg3 Rxg3
>>37.Rb5
>>  ³  (-0.52)   Depth: 10/33   00:00:17  7304kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Na5 32.Qd3 Rxf3 33.Qa6 Rxc3
>>  ³  (-0.56)   Depth: 11/33   00:00:27  11504kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Na5 32.Qd3 Rxf3 33.Qa6 Rxc3
>>  ³  (-0.56)   Depth: 11/39   00:00:45  19193kN
>>30...Rg3 31.Kd2 Rxf3 32.Qg1 Nc5 33.Rbe1 Rg3 34.Qh1 Qxh1 35.Rxh1 Kg7 36.Rh5 a5
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 12/39   00:01:10  29481kN
>>
>>(Blass, Tel-Aviv 14.06.2004)
>>
>>Uri
>
>I can add that 29...Nc5 is also better and it is certainly a search problem.
>
>Uri

There are n number of better moves IF you know that Qh1+ is a draw.
Without that (like knight at f7 instead of pawn , etc) , this is a win : quiet
simple.
You have to "know" that the position is a draw.
After playing Qh1 , there is no point in seeing a draw - it is too late.
You should see it before - and I dont think you will search deep enough in
tourny time to see it from Ng5 stage.
Your eval has to resolve this .....

I am checking google "agressively" :) Maybe that will give some suggestions ...
Mridul



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