Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 15:17:12 06/28/04
Go up one level in this thread
On June 28, 2004 at 16:37:28, Frank Phillips wrote: >On June 28, 2004 at 16:22:13, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On June 28, 2004 at 16:09:24, Frank Phillips wrote: >> >>>On June 28, 2004 at 12:43:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On June 28, 2004 at 12:37:42, Dan Honeycutt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On June 28, 2004 at 08:54:00, Anthony Cozzie wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>settings, and then N games with the new settings. I am only really interested >>>>>>in longer timecontrols: 20 min + on an Athlon 2.0G or so (70 min on P-650, etc), >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Why long time controls? I thought you could test evaluation with shorter time >>>>>controls, search needed longer (or varied) time controls. Am I out in left >>>>>field? >>>>> >>>>>Dan H. >>>> >>>> >>>>My personal belief is that longer controls are better. Short games rely heavily >>>>on the search, and leaves a better chance for random luck to influence the >>>>outcome. Deeper searches tend to make fewer tactical mistakes, leaving the >>>>outcome to the quality of the evaluation.... >>> >>>Two questions for clarification: >>>Does this presuppose diminishing returns? >> >>Not particularly. What it presupposes is that one search might be more likely >>to make errors on shallow depths than another. IE my simple q-search vs a more >>sophisticated q-search. While at long time controls my q-search appears to work >>just fine... >> > >Yes I was assuming the same program (search). > >> >>>And what quality is the evaluation measuring that is different from the prospect >>>of future tactics? >> >> >>future tactics != tactics. Tactics are dynamic. Evaluation is static. But if >>you think about it, who would be happy using just their evaluation with no >>search, to play games? Why is that? Because the search is set up to handle >>dynamic things by shuffling pieces, the evaluation does better on positions >>where everything is static (quiet)... >> > >Yes, how stupid of me. But again I was wondering about diminishing returns. >(Theoretically, I would take an infinitely fast searcher over any evaluation >function.). > I won't enter the "diminishing returns" debate. I haven't seen any sign of "it" yet, although that does not mean that it hasn't already happened or won't happen in the future. I just see no hard evidence to support the idea. I have done _tons_ of testing over the years. And for the past several years, I have absolutely seen that crafty plays better at longer time controls than at blitz. Whether that is because of diminishing returns helping Crafty "even the odds" or whether it is because my particular search and evaluation do better at deeper depths is not something I would try to argue about. That the effect is there, however, is in my testing indisputable... >> >> >> >> >>> >>>I find these tactics versus evaluation debates hard.
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