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Subject: Re: WCCC: Almost no hardwareadvantage for Crafty

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 15:06:27 06/29/04

Go up one level in this thread


On June 29, 2004 at 17:57:07, Djordje Vidanovic wrote:

>On June 29, 2004 at 15:50:00, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On June 29, 2004 at 12:48:06, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On June 29, 2004 at 12:28:03, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On June 29, 2004 at 11:56:05, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On June 29, 2004 at 11:25:08, Jaime Benito de Valle Ruiz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On June 29, 2004 at 08:26:15, Zach Wegner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>One important point is that crafty uses bitboards, so it will have an additional
>>>>>>>speedup on a 64 bit processor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I might be wrong, but I think that Fritz also uses bitboards (I don't know about
>>>>>>Shredder).
>>>>>>Anyway, what about the compiler? And what extra efficiency do you expect from a
>>>>>>64-bit processor? Enough to outsearch all other engines running on similar
>>>>>>processors?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jaime
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>AMD has tested Crafty to answer this question.  They compiled it for 32 bits,
>>>>>and for 64 bits.  The 64 bit version runs 47% faster than the 32 bit version,
>>>>>everything else remaining constant.
>>>>
>>>>Going from 32 to 64 bits also the number of registers moves up from 8 to 16
>>>>which is a big speedup also for Crafty and is inside that 47%.
>>>
>>>
>>>Does not change their statement or measurement...
>>>
>>>And the question will be whether or not the commercial guys use a beta compiler
>>>to produce accesses to those extra registers.  If, as you always claim, fritz is
>>>in ASM (rather than what Frans claims, that it was rewritten into pure C a
>>>couple of years back) then it won't be able to touch those registers either...
>>
>>Fritz will be opteron assembly, read my lips...
>>
>>Please show me a statement from Frans where he quotes it is written entirely in
>>C. I cannot remember that at all. They (reporters) just ask whether 'fritz' is
>>written in C. The answer is probably 'yes' to that (interface).
>>
>>>Time will tell...
>>>>>Fritz does not use bitboards by the way...
>
>
>
>Fritz will hit 25 million kn/s, reaching ply 17-18 in the middlegame... :-) And
>it will be Opteron ASM, by the way :-)

I'm not so sure about speed. Commercially they will say it's C++ when that is in
their interest to say, they will say it's C when that's in their interest and it
will be assembly when it is in their interest to say so.

But the *engine* is in assembly, let's be clear there.

I would expect about 15 million nps, except that last years Frans has put more
knowledge into evaluation. I remember he said already around 1999 he had an
evaluation exactly 2 times bigger than crafty, so i guess that'll be at least 4
times bigger by now.

That will slow it down.

Also it's doing seemingly checks in qsearch which slows it down.

I expect somewhere around 9-10 million nps or so. That's about 1000 cycles a
node.





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