Author: Thom Perry
Date: 05:00:37 12/31/98
Go up one level in this thread
On December 31, 1998 at 02:13:55, greg moller wrote: >On December 30, 1998 at 09:13:52, Dan Kiski wrote: > >>On December 30, 1998 at 07:25:29, Thom Perry wrote: >> >>>On December 30, 1998 at 05:38:41, greg moller wrote: >>> >>>>On December 30, 1998 at 03:39:09, Komputer Korner wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 29, 1998 at 16:20:06, Dan Kiski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>The following game is from Fritz 5.16 v MCP8 >>>>>> >>>>>>Fritz 5.16 white >>>>>>MCP8 black >>>>>> >>>>>>1. NF3......NF6 >>>>>>2. D4.......E6 >>>>>>3. C4.......B6 >>>>>>4. NC3......BB7 >>>>>>5. A3.......D5 >>>>>>6. CD.......ED >>>>>>7. QA4 +....C6 >>>>>>8. G3.......NBD7 >>>>>>9. BG2......BD6 >>>>>>10. 0-0......0-0 >>>>>>11. BF4......QE7 >>>>>>12. BXD6.....QXD6 >>>>>>13. RFD1.....RFD8 >>>>>>14. E3.......A5 >>>>>>15. RAE1.....BA6 >>>>>> >>>>>>Fritz is now out of book but chooses NH4, MCP8 is still in book expecting QB3. >>>>>> >>>>>>Now the postion after 16. NH4 i have played through countless times at varying >>>>>>time controls yet MCP8 seems to always choose 16.......NG4. >>>>>> >>>>>>It has lost from this position over and over but always chooses 16.....NG4 and >>>>>>after Fritz's 17. E4 replys with 17......QF6 it might from this point try to >>>>>>change the odd move yet according to Fritz it was already way in front, can >>>>>>someone explain how this book learning works and how many losses will it take >>>>>>before the computer in this case MCP8 varies it's responce, in this case most >>>>>>likely remove 16........NG4 since this seems to be the start of its problems. >>>>>>At one point it added 16......NG4 to book after 6 straight losses using it. >>>>>> >>>>>>I wait until it is 7 points behind claim the win and then scroll back. Play 16. >>>>>>NH4 then carry on again. Am I doing something wrong with this method. >>>>> >>>>>Maybe MCP8 doesn't learn if you claim a win. >>>>>-- >>>>>Komputer korner >>>> >>>>Well, it would be interesting to test this hypothesis, since somehow i always >>>>had the impression that the older MCP7 was adding book moves in the lines it was >>>>LOSING with (!) At this point in time I'm suspicious about this whole learning >>>>algorithm. How exactly does it work, and can it be verified ? >>>> >>>>Regards, greg >>> >>>I too have been wondering about the learning feature in MCP8. I remember back >>>in MCP4/5 that once you analyzed a position/game, if you wanted to repeat the >>>original results, it was necessary to turn off the learning features. >>>Otherwise, the second time around, the evaluation score(s) and response time(s) >>>(time it takes for the program to make a move) were usually slightly different. >>>I attributed this to the learning features. However, with MCP8, I have played >>>several positions where the evaluation score changes drastically (downward) >>>after MCP8 has selected a move, yet MCP8 will continue to make the same move, >>>over and over. This doesn't look like learning to me. >> >>I have no doubt that I do have it set correctly I have been through the manual >>countless times, my only doubt was when I claim the win when 7 pts in front then >>scroll back if it accepts that and learns from it, from what I have seen is it >>accepts it since as stated at one point it added 16. NH4.....NG4 to book, yet >>don't learn from it. Maybe 16.....NG4 is ok maybe the problem is with >>17........QF6 in reply to 17. E5. >> >>Yet as of yet I haven't been able to get it to make another move at time >>controls of up to 3 min\move it just keeps walking into losses even with Fritz >>5.16 set at 10 secs\move from this position. > > I hope that Marty Hirsch, the programmer, gets wind of this problem somehow. >What I find odd is that I read in KK's(I think) review of MCP8 that book >learning had supposedly been improved (!) , this according to Marty, and now it >boasted the best such learning feature. Then there was a report (in CCC?-not >sure) by someone who tested Nimzo98 vs MCP8 and noticed that Nimzo's learning >feature was superior. This cast further doubt on the MCP8 claims. > > Unfortunately, until there's more rigorous testing done, we won't be able to >take these claims for granted. IMO if this is a bug it should be fixed ASAP, >since Mchess is a really fine program. > > >regards, greg I copied this thread and sent it to Marty this morning. One of the reasons I have been buying from him since MCP4 is because he does provide good support for his program. He puts his e-mail address in the owner's manual, and he has always (with only one exception!) promptly responded to my questions about MCP.
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