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Subject: Re: Programmers... & Players

Author: chandler yergin

Date: 12:43:11 07/30/04

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On July 30, 2004 at 13:25:39, Uri Blass wrote:

>On July 30, 2004 at 12:12:55, chandler yergin wrote:
>
>>On July 29, 2004 at 19:10:51, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On July 29, 2004 at 18:44:47, chandler yergin wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 29, 2004 at 13:13:28, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 29, 2004 at 08:04:48, chandler yergin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On July 28, 2004 at 20:01:58, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On July 28, 2004 at 19:56:03, Robin Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Intersting position and mis-evaluation by Fritz. Fritz has trouble with many
>>>>>>>>rook pawn and wrong color bishop positions. Can you please give how the game
>>>>>>>>ended? After a5 it should still be a draw, but White can't wait too much longer
>>>>>>>>to get to the h1 square.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Robin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?379533
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If the game ended that way then it seems that the players clearly did not use
>>>>>>>Fritz to help them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Burkett DID Use Fritz!
>>>>>>That's all he has, and I am in daily contact with him.
>>>>>>His annotations after the game, inserted in the notes, was also by Fritz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Full game, and analysis is posted in my reply to Robin.
>>>>>>Chan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If I am not wrong Burkett was black when white blundered by missing a6 with a
>>>>>draw.
>>
>>Correct Burkett was Black and White blundered.
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Burkett was white!
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Theyn both missed the Draw... so did Fritz!
>>>>That's my point..
>>>
>>>based on the pgn he was black
>>
>>Of course..sorry!
>>>
>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?379533
>>>
>>>It is not important if black missed the draw but if white missed the draw.
>>
>>It's important that Black missed it, because he was the one that annotated the
>>game.
>>
>>White missed the Draw, as originally Posted.
>>Missed it twice in fact.
>>Black also missed it, as it was not mentioned in the original game Notes, but
>>added after, when I pointed it out to the players.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Fritz could find the drawing move Kc4 instead of a6.
>>
>>It didn't, that's the point!
>>
>>>White could not find it so the fact is that white played worse than Fritz.
>>
>>The point of the original Post!
>>Neither player OR Fritz found it!
>>
>>
>>>
>>>The fact that Fritz could not see the draw is not important to justify mistakes
>>>because it could find the correct moves.
>>
>>Well it Didn't!
>
>It did
>
>I already posted analysis by Fritz8 when it could find Kc4(not with a draw
>score)
>see http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?379580
>
>>
>>I think it is extremly important that Fritz did not see the Draw either time!
>
>I think that programs that see the draw may also have illusions about draws when
>there is no draw.
>
>It is not safe to evaluate king near the right corner and wrong bishop as a draw
>because the weaker side may lose by zugzwang when he must play with the g pawn
>and the pawn go from file h to file g.
>
>It was not relevant in the game because there was no pawn in the g file but it
>is only to demonstrate that the problem is not so easy from programming point
>and programs that say 0.00 also may be wrong in different positions.
>
>>Players relied on it's analysis, rather than thinking on their own, and
>>missed it.
>>
>>Robin also pointed out the Fritz problem in this game, although Crafty, Hiarchs,
>>and other Engines found it immediately.
>>Why are you defending Fritz?
>>This is a good Test Position for Engines!
>
>I am defending Fritz because Fritz found the right move Kc4 instead of a6 that
>was played in the game based on analysis that I posted and I am not sure if
>engines that show 0.00 will not also show 0.00 in positions when the weaker side
>is losing by zugzwang.
>
>Fritz is at least better than Movei that cannot find Kc4 and suggest the move
>that was played in the game(a6) after half an hour.
>
>Uri

I'm defending Humans.
We can see it, as obvious.
Some Engines can.. some can't, some take more time.
OK?
;)
CY



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