Author: Dadi Jonsson
Date: 04:44:56 08/02/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 02, 2004 at 07:22:16, Vincent Lejeune wrote:
>On August 02, 2004 at 06:22:47, Dadi Jonsson wrote:
>
>>On August 01, 2004 at 17:41:38, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On August 01, 2004 at 08:21:11, martin fierz wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 31, 2004 at 21:03:11, Dan Ellwein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 31, 2004 at 07:24:15, Mark Young wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>[d]3q3r/4b1k1/4P1p1/rpp2p1p/1nn2Q2/5N1P/P4PP1/RBB1R1K1 w
>>>>>>Another GM sac refuted by computers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This position is from...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>GM Fischer - GM Leonid Stein
>>>>>>Interzonal, Sousse 1967
>>>>>>
>>>>>>GM Fischer played the (so called) winning move Bxf5! Annotators claim GM Fischer
>>>>>>wins easily after Bxf5! gxf5 Qg3+ Kh7 Ng5+ Bxg5 Bxg5 Qe8(or Qd3).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For this reason GM Stein played Qf8? and lost...but Bxf5 gxf5! seems to more
>>>>>>then hold the position. Do any computers or humans disagree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Example line.
>>>>>>Bxf5 gxf5! Qg3+ Kh7 Ng5+ Bxg5 Bxg5 Ra3!.
>>>>>
>>>>>here's the analysis after Ra3...
>>>>>
>>>>>P3/850
>>>>>
>>>>>Time Depth Score Positions Moves
>>>>>4:12:43 2/14 2.36 1240838800 1.Bxf5 gxf5 2.Qg3+ Kh7 3.Bg5 Rg8
>>>>> 4.Rad1 Qe8 5.Rd7 Rg7 6.Qf4 Nc6
>>>>> 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxg6+ Kxg6 9.Bxe7
>>>>> Nxe7 10.Ne5+ Nxe5 11.Rxe5
>>>>>---- ---- ---- ---- ----
>>>>>0:00 1/3 2.51 1803 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Qg7 7.Qxc5
>>>>>0:00 1/4 2.32 4534 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.e7 Re8
>>>>> 8.Rac1 Nd3
>>>>>0:00 1/5 2.52 12963 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.Qxc5 Rg8
>>>>> 8.g3
>>>>>0:00 1/6 2.52 39803 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.Qxc5 Rg8
>>>>> 8.g3
>>>>>0:01 1/7 2.66 113304 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.Qxc5 Nd3
>>>>> 8.Qxb5 Nxe1 9.Rxe1
>>>>>0:04 1/8 2.81 409975 5.Qxa3 Qxg5 6.Qa7+ Kh6 7.e7 Qf6
>>>>> 8.Rad1 Qc6 9.Qd7 Qxd7 10.Rxd7
>>>>>0:14 1/9 3.18 1257931 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Nac2 7.Bf6 Re8
>>>>> 8.a3 Nxe1 9.Rxe1 Nd5 10.Bb2 Rc8
>>>>>0:40 1/10 3.50 3408997 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4
>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.e7 Re8 10.Re5 c3 11.Kf1
>>>>>
>>>>>1:50 1/11 3.62 9678741 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4
>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.Rc5 Re8 10.f4 Nd3
>>>>> 11.f5+ Kf6
>>>>>4:01 1/12 3.47 22030168 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4
>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.g4 h4 10.Kf1 Nd3 11.Rf7
>>>>> c3
>>>>>11:23 1/13 3.33 63675821 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4
>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.g4 hxg4 10.hxg4 Rd4
>>>>> 11.Kf1 Rxg4 12.Rf7 c3 13.Ke2
>>>>>30:38 2/14 3.27 173765145 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.Re5 c4
>>>>> 8.Rxf5 Kg6 9.Re5 Re8 10.Kf1 Nd3
>>>>> 11.Re4 Rc8 12.e7 Kf7 13.Rd1
>>>>>1:19:29 3/15 3.35 457992923 5.Qxa3 Nxa3 6.Bxd8 Rxd8 7.e7 Re8
>>>>> 8.Rad1 Nc6 9.Rd5 Nc2 10.Re6 N2d4
>>>>> 11.Rxc6 Nxc6 12.Rxf5 c4 13.Rxh5+
>>>>> Kg7 14.Rxb5 Rxe7 15.Kf1
>>>>>Dan
>>>>
>>>>are you sure you analysed the right position? following up from the game, this
>>>>looks just fine for black after e.g. 8...Kg7 i don't see anything at all for
>>>>white. definitely nothing close to +3...
>>>>
>>>>cheers
>>>> martin
>>>
>>>I am sure he analyzed the right position.
>>>He simply use a personality of chessmaster that gives random number or something
>>>close to it as an evaluation only because it is sometimes good at test
>>>positions.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>Here is Shredder 8 analysis BEFORE ...Ra3. (Dual Opteron 248, 2GB, 512MB hash,
>>Chess Assistant 7.1).
>>
>>[+1.48] d=25 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.a3 Nxa3 10.e7 Qf7 11.Qxc5 Nac2 12.Qb6 Nxe1 13.Rxe1 Kg7 14.Qxb5
>> Re8 15.Qxb4 Kh7 16.Qb5 Rb3 17.Qc6 Qg6 18.Qd5 Rb4 (19:32.51)
>>
>>[+1.49] d=24 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Rd4
>> 9.Rxd4 cxd4 10.Qd1 Nc3 11.Qxd4 Ne4 12.Qd7+ Kg6 13.e7 Qc8 14.Qd4
>> Qe8 15.f3 Nxg5 16.hxg5 Kh7 17.Re6 Qxe7 18.Rxe7+ Kg8 (12:53.30)
>>
>>[+0.75] d=24 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.a3 Nxa3 10.e7 Qc8 11.Qa1 Qc6 12.Qxh8+ Kxh8 13.e8Q+ Qxe8
>> 14.Rxe8+ Kg7 15.Re7+ Kg6 16.Re6+ Kg7 17.Rde1 Rd7 18.Re7+ Rxe7
>> (5:11.23)
>>
>>[+0.25] d=24 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.a3 Nxa3 10.e7 Qc8 11.Qa1 f4 12.Qf6 Re8 13.Bxf4 Rxd1 14.Rxd1 Qg4
>> 15.Rd8 Qg8 16.Bg5 Rxd8 17.d8Q Qxg5 (3:38.24)
>>
>>[+0.00] d=23 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (2:26.25)
>>
>>[+0.00] d=22 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (1:31.41)
>>
>>[+0.00] d=21 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (0:47.06)
>>
>>[+0.00] d=20 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (0:34.56)
>>
>>[-0.01] d=19 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.h4 Nd5 8.Qc1 Nb4
>> 9.Qf4 Nd5 10.Qc1 Nb4 11.Qf4 Nd5 (0:31.57)
>>
>>[+0.46] d=19 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Bf6 Qxf6 7.Qxf5+ Qxf5 8.Rec1
>> Nxa2 9.Rd1 Qxe6 10.Rxa2 Rxa2 11.Rd7+ (0:08.45)
>>
>>[+0.96] d=19 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qf8 6.Bf6 Qxf6 7.Qxf5+ Qxf5 8.Rec1
>> (0:07.46)
>>
>>[+1.21] d=18 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8
>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 16.g4 Nc3 17.Rd8 (0:03.11)
>>
>>[+1.21] d=17 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8
>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 16.g4 Nc3 17.Rd8 (0:01.40)
>>
>>[+1.23] d=16 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8
>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 16.g4 Nc3 (0:00.55)
>>
>>[+1.33] d=15 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8
>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.g4 Rxe1+ 16.Kg2 (0:00.36)
>>
>>[+1.33] d=15 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8
>> 14.f4 Nxa2 15.Rxd3 Ng7 16.e8Q (0:00.32)
>>
>>[+1.08] d=14 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qd7 Qe8 13.Qxe8 Nxe8
>> 14.f4 Rxd1 15.Rxd1 Nxa2 (0:00.24)
>>
>>[+1.23] d=14 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Qd6 10.Qf5+ Qg6 11.Qxb5 Nd6 12.Qxb4 Qxg5 13.g4 Rxd1
>> 14.Rxd1 hxg4 15.Qe4+ Nxe4 (0:00.23)
>>
>>[+1.48] d=13 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Rd3 7.Qxf5+ Qg6 8.Qxc5
>> Rg8 9.e7 Rxd1 10.Rxd1 Nxa2 11.Rd8 Nc3 12.h4 Qb1+ 13.Kh2 Qe1
>> 14.Qxb5 Nxb5 (0:00.20)
>>
>>[+1.82] d=13 4...Ra3 5.Qf4 Qe8 6.Rad1 Kg6 7.e7 Qc6 8.Qxf5+ Kxf5
>> 9.Rd5+ Nxd5 10.e8Q Rxe8 (0:00.19)
>
>
>as pointed in an other message, the start position of your analyse is not good,
>because white have better move before :
>Bxf5 gxf5! Qg3+ Kh7 Ng5+??? <- here's the blunder
>Bg5! is better and may be winning
>
>[d]3q3r/4b2k/4P3/rpp2pBp/1nn5/5NQP/P4PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 3
>here white still winning, may be you can confirm this with your Dual Opteron 248
>?
I was aware of the strength of Bg5 as you can see in my first message to this
thread. However, Ng5 does not deserve three question marks as it still suffices
to keep the upper hand in the game. Since you asked, here is the analysis of
Shredder 8 (again Dual Opteron 248, 2GB, 512MB hash, Chess Assistant 7.1) after
1. Bxf5! (The best move!) gxf5? 2. Qg3+ Kh7 3. Bg5!
[+3.08] d=20 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.Re5 Ra6
9.Rd7+ Kh6 10.Rxc5 Raxe6 11.a3 Nc6 12.Rc7 Ne5 13.Nd4 Nd3
14.Nxe6
Rxe6 (2:27.47)
[+3.50] d=20 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.e7 Ra7
9.Ng5+ Kg7 10.Rg6+ Kxg6 11.Re6+ Kxg5 12.Rg6+ Kxg6 13.g4 Rxa2
14.gxf5+ Kxf5 15.Kg2 (2:12.51)
[+3.85] d=20 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.e7 Ra7
9.Ng5+ Kg7 10.Rg6+ Kxg6 11.Re6+ Kxg5 12.Rg6+ Kxg6 13.a4 bxa4
14.f4 Rexe7 (2:10.09)
[+3.86] d=20 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf3 Kg7 8.Nxh8 Nc2
9.Nf7 Nxe1 10.Rxe1 Qf6 11.Qxh5 Ra8 12.Qf3 Re8 13.Qg3+ Kf8
14.Ng5
Qe7 15.Qf4 Nd6 16.Qe5 Qxg5 (2:03.57)
[+3.00] d=20 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf3 Kg7 8.Nxh8 Kxh8
9.Qxh5+ Kg7 10.Qxf5 Ra3 11.Red1 Ra5 12.Rd7 Kg8 13.Rxe7 Kh8
14.Qxc5
Kg8 (1:31.26)
[+2.50] d=20 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf3 Kg7 8.Nxh8 Kxh8
9.Qxh5+ Kg7 10.Qxf5 Ra3 11.Red1 Ra5 12.Rd7 Kg8 13.Rxe7 Kh8
14.Qxc5
Kg8 (1:29.23)
[+2.25] d=19 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf4 Qf6 8.Nxh8 Re7
9.Nf7 Nc2 10.Qf3 Nxe1 11.Rxe1 Kg7 12.Qg3+ Qg6 13.Ng5 Kg8
14.Qb8+
Qe8 15.Qf4 (1:14.06)
[+2.43] d=19 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf4 Qf6 8.Nxh8 Nd3
9.Qb8 Re7 10.Qg8+ Kxg8 11.Nf7 Nxe1 12.Rxe1 Rxe6 13.Nh6+ Qxh6
14.Rxe6 Qxe6 15.Kh2 (1:08.28)
[+2.78] d=19 3...Ra7 4.Bxe7 Qxe7 5.Ng5+ Kg7 6.Nf7+ Kh7 7.Qf4 Qf6 8.Nxh8 Nd3
9.Qb8 Re7 10.Qg8+ Kxg8 11.Nf7 (1:07.13)
[+2.79] d=19 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Nd6 5.Bxe7 Qxe7 6.Qxd6 Qxd6 7.Rxd6 Re8 8.e7 Ra7
9.Ng5+ Kg7 10.Rg6+ Kxg6 11.Re6+ Kxg5 12.Rg6+ Kxg6 13.a4 bxa4
14.f4 Rexe7 (1:03.25)
[+2.79] d=19 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Qe8 5.Rd7 Rg7 6.Qc7 Na6 7.Qf4 Bd6 8.Qxf5+ Qg6
9.Qxg6+ Kxg6 10.Nh4+ Kh7 11.Bf6 Bf8 12.Bxg7 Bxg7 13.e7 Rxa2
(0:34.15)
[+2.29] d=19 3...Rg8 4.Rad1 Qe8 5.Rd7 Rg7 6.Qc7 Na6 7.Qf4 Bd6 8.Qxf5+ Qg6
9.Qxg6+ Kxg6 10.Nh4+ Kh7 11.Bf6 Bf8 12.Bxg7 Bxg7 13.e7 Rxa2
(0:31.21)
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