Author: greg moller
Date: 16:52:52 12/31/98
Go up one level in this thread
On December 31, 1998 at 08:00:37, Thom Perry wrote: >On December 31, 1998 at 02:13:55, greg moller wrote: > >>On December 30, 1998 at 09:13:52, Dan Kiski wrote: >> >>>On December 30, 1998 at 07:25:29, Thom Perry wrote: >>> >>>>On December 30, 1998 at 05:38:41, greg moller wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 30, 1998 at 03:39:09, Komputer Korner wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 29, 1998 at 16:20:06, Dan Kiski wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>The following game is from Fritz 5.16 v MCP8 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Fritz 5.16 white >>>>>>>MCP8 black >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1. NF3......NF6 >>>>>>>2. D4.......E6 >>>>>>>3. C4.......B6 >>>>>>>4. NC3......BB7 >>>>>>>5. A3.......D5 >>>>>>>6. CD.......ED >>>>>>>7. QA4 +....C6 >>>>>>>8. G3.......NBD7 >>>>>>>9. BG2......BD6 >>>>>>>10. 0-0......0-0 >>>>>>>11. BF4......QE7 >>>>>>>12. BXD6.....QXD6 >>>>>>>13. RFD1.....RFD8 >>>>>>>14. E3.......A5 >>>>>>>15. RAE1.....BA6 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Fritz is now out of book but chooses NH4, MCP8 is still in book expecting QB3. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Now the postion after 16. NH4 i have played through countless times at varying >>>>>>>time controls yet MCP8 seems to always choose 16.......NG4. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It has lost from this position over and over but always chooses 16.....NG4 and >>>>>>>after Fritz's 17. E4 replys with 17......QF6 it might from this point try to >>>>>>>change the odd move yet according to Fritz it was already way in front, can >>>>>>>someone explain how this book learning works and how many losses will it take >>>>>>>before the computer in this case MCP8 varies it's responce, in this case most >>>>>>>likely remove 16........NG4 since this seems to be the start of its problems. >>>>>>>At one point it added 16......NG4 to book after 6 straight losses using it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I wait until it is 7 points behind claim the win and then scroll back. Play 16. >>>>>>>NH4 then carry on again. Am I doing something wrong with this method. >>>>>> >>>>>>Maybe MCP8 doesn't learn if you claim a win. >>>>>>-- >>>>>>Komputer korner >>>>> >>>>>Well, it would be interesting to test this hypothesis, since somehow i always >>>>>had the impression that the older MCP7 was adding book moves in the lines it was >>>>>LOSING with (!) At this point in time I'm suspicious about this whole learning >>>>>algorithm. How exactly does it work, and can it be verified ? >>>>> >>>>>Regards, greg >>>> >>>>I too have been wondering about the learning feature in MCP8. I remember back >>>>in MCP4/5 that once you analyzed a position/game, if you wanted to repeat the >>>>original results, it was necessary to turn off the learning features. >>>>Otherwise, the second time around, the evaluation score(s) and response time(s) >>>>(time it takes for the program to make a move) were usually slightly different. >>>>I attributed this to the learning features. However, with MCP8, I have played >>>>several positions where the evaluation score changes drastically (downward) >>>>after MCP8 has selected a move, yet MCP8 will continue to make the same move, >>>>over and over. This doesn't look like learning to me. >>> >>>I have no doubt that I do have it set correctly I have been through the manual >>>countless times, my only doubt was when I claim the win when 7 pts in front then >>>scroll back if it accepts that and learns from it, from what I have seen is it >>>accepts it since as stated at one point it added 16. NH4.....NG4 to book, yet >>>don't learn from it. Maybe 16.....NG4 is ok maybe the problem is with >>>17........QF6 in reply to 17. E5. >>> >>>Yet as of yet I haven't been able to get it to make another move at time >>>controls of up to 3 min\move it just keeps walking into losses even with Fritz >>>5.16 set at 10 secs\move from this position. >> >> I hope that Marty Hirsch, the programmer, gets wind of this problem somehow. >>What I find odd is that I read in KK's(I think) review of MCP8 that book >>learning had supposedly been improved (!) , this according to Marty, and now it >>boasted the best such learning feature. Then there was a report (in CCC?-not >>sure) by someone who tested Nimzo98 vs MCP8 and noticed that Nimzo's learning >>feature was superior. This cast further doubt on the MCP8 claims. >> >> Unfortunately, until there's more rigorous testing done, we won't be able to >>take these claims for granted. IMO if this is a bug it should be fixed ASAP, >>since Mchess is a really fine program. >> >> >>regards, greg > >I copied this thread and sent it to Marty this morning. One of the reasons I >have been buying from him since MCP4 is because he does provide good support for >his program. He puts his e-mail address in the owner's manual, and he has >always (with only one exception!) promptly responded to my questions about MCP. I'll try to look up his email, too. Should you get any interesting feedback from Marty, I hope you could share it with us. :-) regards, greg
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