Computer Chess Club Archives

Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: in some cases humans are much better in tactics than computers

Author: Rob Basham

Date: 11:03:52 08/07/04

Go up one level in this thread

On August 07, 2004 at 11:17:59, David Dahlem wrote:

>On August 07, 2004 at 08:51:51, Thomas Lagershausen wrote:
>
>>[D]3r2rk/3n1pp1/2p1b2p/3q3P/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB4RR w - - 0 29
>>
>>In this speedchessgame in round two of the fide-wcc 2004 the IM Neelotpal
>>(2457)found with 29.Rg1-g6 !! with the thread to sacrifice the rook on h6 the
>>strongest move to show that white is not(!) worse in this position.
>>
>>I bet that every computer of the world wouldn´t have found this in a compareable
>>time.
>>
>>So this is a lesson in tactics where computers can learn form human players.
>>
>>Do you agree?
>>
>>TL
>
>Forcing this idea with these moves:
>
>29.Rg6 fxg6 30.hxg6 Rge8 31.Rxh6+ Kg8 32.Rh7
>
>We get this position:
>
>[D]3rr1k1/3n2pR/2p1b1P1/3q4/pp1PNQ2/2P2P2/PP6/KB6 b - - 2 32
>
>Shredder 8  UCI1:
> 1   00:00 -1.77   32. ... bxc3
> 2   00:00 -1.93   32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4
> 2-  00:00 -1.94   32. ... Nf8 33.Qg4 Bxg4
> 2   00:00 -2.21   32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6
> 3   00:00 -2.21   32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6
> 4-  00:00 -2.46   32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 34.cxb4 Nxf4
> 4-  00:00 -2.96   32. ... Nf8 33.Rh4 Nxg6 34.Ng5 Nxf4
> 4   00:00 -3.24   32. ... Nf8 33.Rh2 Nxg6 34.Qc7 bxc3
> 5+  00:00 -2.96   32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Nd7 35.Rg7+ Kh8
> 5+  00:00 -2.30   32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Qxd4 35.cxd4 Nxh7
> 5   00:00  8.70   32. ... Nf8 33.Nf6+ gxf6 34.Qxf6 Qxa2+ 35.Bxa2 Nxh7 36.Bxe6+
>Rxe6 37.Qxe6+ Kg7 38.gxh7 bxc3 39.bxc3
> 5-  00:00  8.69   32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Rxg8+ Kxg8
> 5-  00:00  8.34   32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Rxg8+ Kxg8
> 5   00:00 -1.08   32. ... Qf5 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rh8+ Bg8 35.Qh7 Qd5 36.cxb4
> 5-  00:00 -1.09   32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Rh8+ Kxh8 35.Qh4+ Kg8 36.Qh8+
>Kxh8
> 5-  00:00 -1.44   32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Rh8+ Kxh8 35.Qh4+ Kg8 36.Qh8+
>Kxh8
> 5   00:00 -2.64   32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Ne4 Qxd4 36.Rh8+ Bg8
>37.Qh7
> 5-  00:00 -2.65   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Kf8 36.Nxc3 Qxf3
>37.Qe7+ Kxe7
> 5   00:00 -2.82   32. ... a3 33.bxa3 Nf8 34.Rh4 Nxg6
> 6+  00:00 -2.57   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Kf8 36.Qf4+ Nf6
>37.Nxf6 Qf5 38.Bxf5
> 6+  00:00 -2.07   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 bxc3+ 35.Ka1 Qxa2+ 36.Bxa2 c2
>37.Bxe6+ Kf8 38.Bxd7
> 6   00:00 -1.98   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+
>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Qxf5 Qxd4
> 7+  00:01 -1.73   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+
>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Qxf5 Qxf5 39.Rxf5
> 7   00:01 -1.49   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+
>37.Ka1 Nf6 38.Nxf6 gxf6 39.Bxf5 Qxd4
> 8   00:02 -1.63   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh5 bxc3+
>37.Ka1 Qxd4 38.Qxf5+ Nf6 39.Rh8+ Ke7 40.Rh4
> 9+  00:04 -1.38   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+
>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Qg8 39.Rxg8+ Ke7 40.Nxf5+ Ke6 41.Bxc2
> 9   00:06 -1.30   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+
>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Ke7 39.Nxf5+ Qxf5 40.Qxf5 cxb1Q+ 41.Kxb1 Rxh8
>10   00:13 -1.19   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Nd6 bxc3+
>37.Ka1 c2 38.Rh8+ Ke7 39.Nxf5+ Qxf5 40.Qxf5 cxb1Q+ 41.Kxb1 Rb8+ 42.Kc2 Rxh8
>11+  00:23 -0.94   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Qf4+ Bf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7
>37.Qh4+ Ke6 38.Ng5+ Kd6 39.Qf4+ Ke7 40.Rxe8+ Kxe8 41.Qxf5 bxc3+
>11+  00:32 -0.44   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 axb2+ 34.Kxb2 Kf8 35.Rxg7 bxc3+ 36.Ka1 Bg4
>37.Qh8+ Qg8 38.Rxg8+ Ke7
>11   01:03  3.24   32. ... a3 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.bxc3 Bg8 36.Rh7 Bxh7
>37.Qh6+ Ke7 38.Qxh7+ Qf7 39.gxf7 Rg8
>11-  01:05  3.23   32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 Bg8 36.Qh8 Nf6
>37.Rxg8+ Nxg8 38.g7+
>11-  01:06  2.88   32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 a3 36.Qh8+ Bg8
>37.Rf7+ Qxf7 38.bxa3 Qxf3 39.g7+ Ke7 40.Nd5+ cxd5 41.Qh4+ Kd6 42.Qf4+
>11   01:08  2.75   32. ... bxc3 33.Nxc3 Qc4 34.Qh4 Kf8 35.Rxg7 a3 36.Qh8+ Bg8
>37.Rf7+ Qxf7 38.gxf7 axb2+ 39.Kxb2 Rb8+ 40.Kc2 Kxf7 41.Ne4 Ke6 42.Qh6+
>11-  01:10  2.74   32. ... Bf5 33.Qh2 Bxg6 34.Rh8+ Kf7 35.Nd6+ Ke7 36.Nxe8 Bxe8
>37.Qh4+ Nf6 38.Rh7
>11-  01:11  2.39   32. ... Bf5 33.Qh2 Bxg6 34.Rh8+ Kf7 35.Nd6+ Ke7 36.Nxe8 Bxe8
>37.Qh4+ Nf6 38.Rh7 Qxf3
>11   01:23  1.42   32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6
>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8
>11-  01:28  1.41   32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Qf4+ Bf5 35.Qxf5+ Qxf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7
>37.Rxe8+ Rxe8 38.Nf6
>11-  01:28  1.06   32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Qf4+ Bf5 35.Qxf5+ Qxf5 36.Rh8+ Ke7
>37.Rxe8+ Rxe8 38.Ng3
>11   01:32  1.06   32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+
>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1
>12+  01:37  1.31   32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+
>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 Rxb1+ 39.Kxb1 Rxb2+
>12+  01:37  1.81   32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 bxc3 35.Qh8+ Bg8 36.Nxc3 Qxa2+
>37.Bxa2 Re1+ 38.Bb1 Rxb1+ 39.Kxb1 Rxb2+
>12   01:47  2.74   32. ... Rb8 33.Qh4 Kf8 34.Rxg7 Kxg7 35.Qh7+ Kf8 36.g7+ Ke7
>37.g8Q+ Kd8 38.Qh4+ Kc7 39.Qgg3+ Kb6 40.Qhh2 Rec8 41.cxb4 Qxd4 42.Qd6 Qxd6
>43.Qxd6
>12-  01:54  2.73   32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6
>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8
>12-  01:57  2.38   32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6
>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Qxf6
>12   02:05  1.40   32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6
>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 Rxe8 39.Kb1 Re2 40.Qg5 Kf8
>13   02:37  1.28   32. ... Bf5 33.Qh4 Bxg6 34.c4 Bxh7 35.cxd5 Bxe4 36.Bxe4 Nf6
>37.Bg6 cxd5 38.Bxe8 Rxe8 39.Kb1 Re2 40.Qg5 Kf7 41.Kc1
>
>Regards
>Dave

That's my point! Thanks for posting!

If by move 32 white showed a plus 7.00 or 8.00 score, then I would say that
29. Rg6 is OK....and worth trying!

As we can now clearly see, Only a plus 1.28 is not winning for white!

Rob

This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.