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Subject: Re: The bookmakers

Author: Ed Trice

Date: 11:46:13 08/08/04

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Hi Martin,

I thought that might be the case, I was just wondering if someone had worked out
a means to finesse the selection criteria.

What a bummer.

On August 08, 2004 at 04:10:18, martin fierz wrote:

>On August 07, 2004 at 20:21:49, Ed Trice wrote:
>
>>How much success has Dropout Expansion [Thomas Lincke] had in the domain of
>>chess? Has any opening theory been overturned as a result of this?
>>
>>Are there any "Dropout Expansion Junkies" out there who have applied the
>>technique to chess who might be willing to share their experiences?
>
>hi ed,
>
>as you probably know, i know tom, and i looked at his chess book once when he
>was still working on it. at that time, it was pretty much no good at all. the
>problem with chess is that you have many moves which are clearly absurd, but
>which an engine will not rate as such - e.g. 1.h3 is not a horrible move at all,
>but still nothing you would want to try... therefore, the drop-out-expander for
>chess has to be extremely selective in order not to expand such moves, which
>then in turn means that it misses all kinds of other things.
>
>an example: i remember we once thought it was a good idea to look at a dragon
>variation like so:
>
>1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
>Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. Bb3 Rc8 11. O-O-O Ne5 12. h4 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 and either
>here, or 14. h5 Nxh5 here we started the expander, which found 15. g4 Nf6 so far
>so good, a very well known dragon position:
>
>[D] 3q1rk1/pp1bppbp/3p1np1/8/2rNP1P1/2N1BP2/PPP4Q/2KR3R b - - 0 16
>
>and now the main line went 16. Qh2? h5? and so on - the crafty version used (i
>think 16.something) had no clue that after 16. Qh2? Rxc3! black is fine. it
>scored this as about -1 for black, and because of the narrow limits on the book
>expander, it never searched this line further... as i see, my fritz 7 is better
>at this position, so of course it also depends on how good your engine is.
>
>for a game like checkers it works very well, because there really many moves
>simply lose instantly and you can focus on the good moves. for chess this is not
>true. i know tom continued his book expansion until he had a couple of million
>moves (4 million IIRC), but i don't know whether it ever was any good!
>
>cheers
>  martin



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