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Subject: Re: Knight to the Rim

Author: Stuart Cracraft

Date: 14:22:59 08/11/04

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On August 10, 2004 at 17:07:37, Anthony Cozzie wrote:

>On August 09, 2004 at 16:02:38, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>
>>On August 09, 2004 at 14:25:30, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>
>>>[D]r1bqkb1r/2pp1ppp/p1n2p2/1p2p3/4P3/1B3N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b q - 4 1
>>>
>>>I don't know if I filled in the castle flags right but in this position
>>>black still has both rights left.
>>>
>>>The question is, if your program values bishops more than knights,
>>>how do you prevent it from playing Na5 to capture the White Bishop
>>>but then giving up the pawn at e5 (since the capture Nxe4 by black
>>>is unplayable). (e.g. 1. ... Na5 2. Nxe5 Nxb3 3. ab)
>>>
>>>I've searched this to 10 full ply with unlimited quiescence
>>>and it still can't see that Na5 is bad.
>>>
>>>It would help if some people posted their searches and mention
>>>how they avoid this kind of issue.
>>>
>>>My search:
>>>
>>>Alpha=-255 Beta=245 Maxdepth=99 MaxTime=9999999
>>> 1/11> c6a5  0.00  245       68 c6a5
>>> 1/11  f6e4  0.01 1026      159 f6e4
>>> 2/15  f6e4  0.01 1008      946 f6e4 f1e1
>>> 3/17< f6e4  0.02  758     4181 f6e4 d2d4 e5d4
>>> 3/20  f6e4  0.04   75     7143 f6e4 b3d5 e4f6
>>> 4/30  f6e4  0.13   75    24970 f6e4 b3d5 e4f6 d5c6
>>> 5/34  c6a5  0.50   57   104715 c6a5 f1e1 a5b3 a2b3 c8b7
>>> 6/34  c6a5  1.22   45   256985 c6a5 f1e1 a5b3 a2b3 c8b7 b1c3
>>> 7/42  c6a5  4.31   32   889215 c6a5 f3e5 a5b3 c2b3 f8d6 d2d4 f6e4
>>> 8/51  c6a5 24.86   19  5021946 c6a5 f3e5 a5b3 c2b3 d8e7 d2d4 d7d6 e5f3
>>> 9/54  c6a5 115.27   19 19483875 c6a5 f3e5 a5b3 c2b3 d8e7 d2d4 d7d6 e5f3
>>>10/54  c6a5 264.28   26 44999682 c6a5 f1e1 a5b3 a2b3 c8b7 d2d4 f6e4 b1d2 d7d5
>>>
>>>
>>>Stuart
>>
>>Why don't you play Na5 Nxe5 and see what your engine thinks?
>>
>>anthony
>
>1... Nf6xe4 2. Rf1-e1 d7-d5 3. Nb1-c3 Bf8-c5 4. Nc3xe4 d5xe4 5. Re1xe4
> = (0.14)	Depth: 7/22	00:00:00.69	129kN (187 KN/s, 37 splits, 8 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. Nb1-c3 Na5xb3 3. a2xb3 Bc8-b7 4. d2-d4 d7-d5 5. e4xd5 e5xd4
> = (0.24)	Depth: 7/22	00:00:01.15	264kN (229 KN/s, 54 splits, 11 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. Nb1-c3 Na5xb3 3. a2xb3 Bc8-b7 4. d2-d4 d7-d5 5. e4xd5 e5xd4
> = (0.24)	Depth: 7/22	00:00:01.29	313kN (243 KN/s, 71 splits, 16 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. Rf1-e1 Na5xb3 3. a2xb3 Bc8-b7 4. d2-d3 Bf8-b4 5. Nb1-c3
> = (0.23)	Depth: 8/24	00:00:01.58	435kN (274 KN/s, 81 splits, 17 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. Rf1-e1 Na5xb3 3. a2xb3 Bc8-b7 4. d2-d3 Bf8-b4 5. Nb1-c3
> = (0.23)	Depth: 8/24	00:00:02.14	764kN (356 KN/s, 130 splits, 22 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. Nf3xe5 Na5xb3 3. c2xb3 Bf8-d6 4. d2-d4 Nf6xe4 5. Qd1-f3 Bd6xe5 6.
>d4xe5
> = (0.07)	Depth: 9/24	00:00:02.52	1033kN (410 KN/s, 141 splits, 23 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. Nf3xe5 Na5xb3 3. c2xb3 Bf8-d6 4. d2-d4 Nf6xe4 5. Qd1-f3 Bd6xe5 6.
>d4xe5
> = (0.07)	Depth: 9/24	00:00:05.29	3667kN (692 KN/s, 230 splits, 49 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. d2-d3 Na5xb3 3. a2xb3 Qd8-e7 4. Nb1-c3 b5-b4 5. Nc3-e2 d7-d5 6.
>Bc1-g5
> = (0.09)	Depth: 10/24	00:00:05.85	4408kN (753 KN/s, 251 splits, 51 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. d2-d3 Na5xb3 3. a2xb3 Qd8-e7 4. Nb1-c3 b5-b4 5. Nc3-e2 d7-d5 6.
>Bc1-g5
> = (0.09)	Depth: 10/27	00:00:07.75	6794kN (876 KN/s, 375 splits, 59 aborts)
>1... Nc6-a5 2. Nf3xe5 Na5xb3 3. c2xb3 Qd8-e7 4. d2-d4 Nf6xe4 5. Qd1-c2 Bc8-b7 6.
>Qc2xc7 Bb7-d5
> = (-0.04)	Depth: 11/27	00:00:08.86	8273kN (933 KN/s, 391 splits, 62 aborts)
>1... Nf6xe4 2. Rf1-e1 d7-d5 3. Nb1-c3 Ne4xc3 4. d2xc3 Bc8-e6 5. Nf3xe5 Nc6xe5 6.
>Re1xe5 Bf8-d6
> = (0.15)	Depth: 11/27	00:00:10.56	10629kN (1006 KN/s, 419 splits, 69 aborts)
>1... Nf6xe4 2. Rf1-e1 d7-d5 3. Nb1-c3 Ne4xc3 4. d2xc3 Bc8-e6 5. Nf3xe5 Nc6xe5 6.
>Re1xe5 Bf8-d6
> = (0.15)	Depth: 11/29	00:00:12.59	13345kN (1060 KN/s, 532 splits, 72 aborts)
>1... Nf6xe4 2. Rf1-e1 d7-d5 3. Nb1-c3 Ne4xc3 4. d2xc3 Bc8-e6 5. Nf3xe5 Nc6-a5 6.
>Bc1-e3 Bf8-e7 7. Be3-f4 Na5xb3 8. a2xb3
> = (0.04)	Depth: 12/29	00:00:15.54	17177kN (1105 KN/s, 544 splits, 73 aborts)
>1... Nf6xe4 2. Rf1-e1 d7-d5 3. Nb1-c3 Ne4xc3 4. d2xc3 Bc8-e6 5. Nf3xe5 Nc6-a5 6.
>Bc1-e3 Bf8-e7 7. Be3-f4
> = (0.04)	Depth: 12/30	00:00:36.21	43489kN (1201 KN/s, 741 splits, 94 aborts)
>1... Nf6xe4 2. Rf1-e1 d7-d5 3. d2-d3 Ne4-f6 4. Nf3xe5 Nc6xe5 5. Re1xe5 Bc8-e6 6.
>Nb1-c3 Bf8-d6 7. Re5-g5 d5-d4 8. Bb3xe6 f7xe6
> = (-0.08)	Depth: 13/35	00:00:42.64	52272kN (1226 KN/s, 773 splits, 96 aborts)
>1... Bf8-e7 2. Nb1-c3 d7-d6 3. a2-a4 b5-b4 4. Nc3-d5 Nf6xe4 5. Nd5xe7 Nc6xe7 6.
>d2-d4 Bc8-g4 7. d4xe5 d6xe5 8. Qd1xd8 Ra8xd8 9. Nf3xe5
> = (-0.04)	Depth: 13/35	00:01:19.55	99149kN (1246 KN/s, 838 splits, 110 aborts)
>1... Bf8-e7 2. Nb1-c3 d7-d6 3. a2-a4 b5-b4 4. Nc3-d5 Nf6xe4 5. Nd5xe7 Nc6xe7 6.
>d2-d4 Bc8-g4 7. d4xe5 d6xe5 8. Qd1xd8
> = (-0.04)	Depth: 13/37	00:02:19.21	170583kN (1225 KN/s, 1040 splits, 124
>aborts)
>
>Zappa also needs 10 ply to drop Na5, and it finally gets the book move Be7 at 13
>ply and about a minute.  I think its just tactics to realize that black loses e5
>pawn and can't pick up the e4 pawn because of various pins.
>
>anthony

That's my point. Without book and without extreme search, is there a
way to avoid 1. ... Na5?

Stuart



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