Author: José Carlos
Date: 06:51:42 08/12/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 12, 2004 at 07:10:46, Frank Quisinsky wrote:
>On August 11, 2004 at 19:06:06, José Carlos wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>>I understand it exactly as before: you have a problem and disturb Ed to fix
>>your problem. If _you_ decide to create a web page and a support forum for
>>Arena, fix your own problems, Frank. Pro Deo, as Averno or Crafty or Cilian, is
>>freeware. If you're ready to interface with freeware, you must be ready for it
>>not to work as you expect. Freeware has no warranty, it might work or it might
>>crash every 5 minutes. Learn to live with that.
>
>This is right.
>But don't forget ... the most are thinking that Freeware is not good and it's a
>hard work to give the users the information ... Freeware can be better. A good
>example is Linux. I am sure that the Linux system are more interesting as the
>Windows OS.
And of course, what you think is what all people must accept.
Well, let me remaind you that you can only speak in your name, not in the name
of the rest of the world. I know you have a problem understanding this, but it's
called *freedom*.
>The problem you spoke about it is for us a little problem.
>Will give you some information ...
>
>01. Martin Blume programmed alone on Arena in his free time. He try to make the
>best and Martin have the same opinion as yourself, I believe each other
>programmer. But this have not to do with ... we can try to make it better.
So you're saying Martin has the same opinion as me and you still try to
overule him? That says all...
>Today Arena is on a very hight level. In much things no commercial software have such
>possibilitys. Will not say that Arena is the best chess GUI because much other
>options are not interesting for our team and I don't know that we can make it
>better without to copy other things.
Arena is great. Yes. I always congratulate Martin for it. I never get tired of
congratulating him.
>02. I have the ideas to collect groups for make good ideas better. If I have
>success I have more fun with my hobby because the result of it is that what I
>like. With other words ... I thinking on me too with that what I do.
That's fair. You try to have fun with your hobby. That's great, Frank. I do
the same. But you won't hear me disturbing others all the time to do what I want
for helping me have fun. That's the problem you don't seem to address in your
post. Please, try to think about what I'm saying here.
>03. Own problems:
>We have a lot ... a good FAQ is not on the page of us. I never find the time to
>make it, have three little girls and give to much time in the latest years for
>computer chess. Have a good job and need time. But we start the ASA selection
>and collect all the messages by users. Martin sayed ... my god my problem must
>be bad if I look in ASA. I say to Martin, not bad and believe me the others have
>the same problems with mistakes but the mistakes are not open and not open
>listed. Not easy to motivate us for our own work with open support but in my
>opinion ... it's the best way!
Fair again. Have your FAQ, and your children and your job and your ASA. And
enjoy them all.
>>>The next problem I have are the adapters. Arena don't need the adapters because
>>>Arena have a very good WB and UCI support. Arena users try the adapter, find
>>>mistakes and write us a mail.
>>
>>
>> I'm starting to believe that your Arena users are not very smart. No intention
>>to insult, but if they email you because Pro Deo crashes and they email you
>>because the adapter doesn't work... well, maybe I should email you next time my
>>car stops working.
>> It's very easy if you don't want problems: in your web site, post a list of
>>supported engines; don't list Pro Deo there; don't list any adapter either. Put
>>a link to the list in the heading of your forum.
>> Just one idea, but you can solve your problem in many other different ways.
>
>Thanks for your ideas!
>But each engine which is not supported is a bad result by us.
*** IMPORTANT POINT ***
Don't blame others for what you decide is good or bad for your team. You get a
gift, either with Pro Deo or Faile. You, and only you, can choose what to do
with the gift. You can decide that writing a GUI that interfaces them both is
your main goal. Right: do it! But don't blame the people who gives you the gift
for not getting _your_ goals!
> Because we have
>all possibilitys to make each engine compatible. So far the engine support is
>great and each changes in the support sources are danger. So I try to give Ed
>the information about our problems but I believe I found not the right words.
>The situation with Ed and my is not easy, unfortunately.
You know you have that "not finding the rigth words" problem very often in
english, yes? Then, why not delegate that task? It is fair to send *1* email to
Ed with something like: "Dear Ed, we in Arena team appreciate very much your
free program and would like to inform you about some incompatibilities with our
GUI. Our users would be really grateful if you could have a look at the
following list: ...". I'm sure Ed's reaction would be very positive to this
message.
>>>What I have to answer in this case?
>>
>>
>> "Arena doesn't support adapters".
>>
>>
>>>Arena don't need a adapter is for the most not an await answer because the users
>>>are thinking if the program need under other GUIs an adapter the engine must
>>>used the adapter under Arena too :-)
>>
>>
>> That's their problem. But from heart, I'm sure your users are more intelligent
>>than all this you're saying.
>
>Yes, the most!
>Do you make support for a software Jose!
I've been doing for ages, Frank. Remember I'm a professional programmer. My
family eats everyday because I write good software and give good support. I'm
responsible for my work. I don't blame microsoft if my program crashes, because
my clients wouldn't buy my software anymore. I just look for a workaround and
make them happy, even if my code was correct and the compiler made something
wierd.
>You have an own engine and I don't know how many support mails you are writing
>daily.
For Averno? Very few, yes. Fortunately (it means it works).
>Example:
>I make support for Millennium 2000 around one year. This was not easy but I try
>to give for every questions a good help. The questions I got are in different
>cases the result of ... I can't work with the program because I haven't the
>knowledge about it. And the software are easy and good!
So what? I don't know what point do you want to make with this example, sorry.
>>>This have not to do with Rebel, max a little bit because I see that Ed have an
>>>adapter configuration on his commercial Rebel CD-Rom. Ed is thinking on the
>>>ChessBase users and add the adapter on the CD. This is OK but give me a good
>>>explanation for people which asked us to the adapter storys.
>>
>>
>> "Arena doesn't support adapters".
>> "Pro Deo is not supported by Arena. Email Mr. Shroeder for issues about that
>>program".
>
>Wrong:
>If ProDeo a WB engine it is support by Arena because Arena have no problems with
>WB engines. Each WB engine works fine under Arena and within ProDeo have to work
>to. This is a different ...
Sorry Frank, but this is stupid. You first complain that Pro Deo generates
thousands of emails at you because it has problems under Arena. Then I suggest
you to label it as "not compatible" until the author fixes the problem. Now you
say it works perfectly because it's a wb engine. Make up your mind, Frank:
Freeware is a gift, and it comes "as is". Take it or throw it out, but stop
complaining... this is annoying.
>Not interesting what the programmer have written.
*** IMPORTANT POINT ***
You can't listen, you want everybody to do what you want. You must learn to
live with other people opinions and insterests. And accept that what you want,
is not always compatible with what others want.
If you're not interested in what the programmers says... what can I say,
Frank. *I'm interested*. In fact, I'm only interested, in this case, in what Ed
and Martin say. Not in your opinions, they're not relevant at all for this
matter (they are for other things, of course, no offense intended).
>Enough is ... ProDeo is a WB compatible engine!
That ("WB compatible engine") is just a label, like "fast searcher" or "good
tactician". There're millions of details behind the labels and you are not
capable to make conclusions against the author of the program. Only he know what
degree of compatibility he has implemented and why.
>And we are very proud of this result!
Again, that's your decision. You can't force other people to do things that
make you proud.
>>>Example:
>>>Look in Arena Event Forum ...
>>>
>>>Michael Jesdinsky:
>>>http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67213/messages/2301.htm
>>>And much other of the messages about it!
>>
>>
>> Good idea to link to a post in german. I love to read languajes I don't know.
>
>Oh, I am not thinking about it, sorry!
>
>>>Jose, please believe me ...
>>
>>
>> I only believe in facts, Frank. Religion and such is not for me.
>>
>>
>>>The best way is to work hand in hand and to make the engines compatible to each
>>>other GUIs.
>>
>>
>> "The best way" to what? To the best for computer chess fans? Let them speak
>>for themselves. I prefer to receive 200 emails about Averno not working on this
>>or that GUI than to read your "summary" for all of them. They are old enough to
>>make their own claims.
>
>You know what we have today!
>This is a work in the group and it was a lot of work to have this status today.
>Users and programmers have speak for themselves and supported the good ideas
>with compatiblitys. In my opinion a problem today can be solved fast because we
>don't have bigger compatibility problems today. This problems we have in the
>past, not today.
Your opinions, ok? Well, let me have *my* opinions and *Ed* have his opinions
and everybody have their own opinions.
>>
>>
>>>You know that this is at the moment not possible because every GUI
>>>programmer have other ideas. But for users its a little chaos, perhaps not for
>>>you but for much others.
>>
>>
>> Again, speak for yourself. You're not "the choosen one". People can ask.
>>They'll be listened, don't doubt it.
>
>In this case I can't speak for myself. I have other interest Jose. I try to
>solved problems and my intention is to solved problems!
>
>With other word:
>If I am a user only I have for sure such an opinion you have written. On
>different days I wish me that I can thinking you have written.
Again... if you decide to make yourself the "trouble solver", that's great!
Solve the problems and shut up! You want to solve problems... or do you want
*others* to solve problems? Let the others then decide whether they want to
solve problems or not. Be coherent with your own decision. *You*, solve the
problems if you want. Is this so difficult to understand?
>>
>>
>>>And the problems comes to a good support which try to solved such problems.
>>
>>
>> If you decide to give such support, do it. That's all. Explain them why this
>>or that engine has this or that problem. If you don't want to do the latter,
>>nobody forces you to "give support".
>
>This is right!
>A good support give animations for others!
>Animation is the main and for me most important reason to make such a work. An
>users which config ProDeo under Arena, have problems for the first time, solved
>the problems for the second time have more interest to used the software and
>thinking ... WOW ... what can do for the group!
>
>The groups are building here, in other fora around computer chess. This is not
>important but the users work in the group. How many examples you need for
>understand what I say! I can give you arount 100 for the moment I have in my
>brain.
Maybe you need a million examples to make me understand it, because I see it
as nonsense. You want to make groups? Great, do it! What the fuck does that have
to do with bothering others to do what you want? Make your groups, chat, solve
your problems... and let the rest of the world live in peace.
>>>So I give me the question:
>>>Why we make such a work to make all compatible if different users will used an
>>>adapter! And all this for a perfect working GUI which don't need such adapters.
>>
>>
>> Why does that bother you? Let people do what they want. They're free, aren't
>>they?
>>
>>
>>>I can give you the answer :-)
>>>The persons like UCI and like it to get more information by the engine.
>>
>>
>> Speaking in the name of the poor people that can't do theirselves again?
>>
>>
>>>We can solved the problem with a WB protocol III.
>>
>>
>> We? You mean Martin Blume and you or what? Don't count on me to change my
>>interface. Or maybe yes. Maybe I'll change it. It depends on my feelings if a
>>new protocol is proposed, but not definetly because you think it solves an
>>inexistent problem.
>
>Martin Blume can solved it, yes!
>But Martin have not interest to make it because this must be organice by a group
>of programmers and of course Tim. Tim have more or less interest to give u the
>development and to search a person which work on his project. You can read it in
>much comments of Tim. We have to look in the future Jose or we are playing with
>WB in the next 1000 years.
Yes, I'm very much worried about what will be mu hobby in 1000 years from now.
Come on! Improving the protocol is nice, sure, but taking it as "our future
depends on it" makes me laugh.
>OK, WB is enough for the most hard fans but not in
>combination with all interest I can see.
If you want to improve something, just do it. You'll be very welcome. But
don't want to do the work, you want others to do it for you.
>>
>>>Now you know the reason for my
>>>messages here. Not more not less ... because I like it to have an result if I
>>>make me the work and give such comments.
>>
>>
>> Wellcome to the freeware world. This software is provided "as is", without any
>>warranty whatsoever. Use it if you want, and throw it to the trash bin if you
>>don't want it.
>
>The advantage we have!
>But not an advantage to stop a good work with this comment in the brain.
Live with it. Freeware is a gift. Take it or ignore it, but it's very ugly to
receive a gift and say "improve it or it's worthless for me".
>>
>>
>>>Not again yourself, not again Ed or others ...
>>>The problem are the converter / adapters for GUIs which don't need it.
>>
>>
>> It's a problem only in your imagination, or what do you think of this: I have
>>a computer with Red Hat Linux installed and I open a VMWare virtual machine with
>>windows 2000 running in where I use a program I wrote that calls Arena and sends
>>some windows messages to press buttons and select menu items and chooses the
>>engines to play a match, and those engines use an adapter to change from
>>winboard to uci and from uci to winboard seven times before they connect to
>>Arena!!!
>> Terrible problem? You gonna suicide? No, not at all. I can do whatever
>>stupidity I want in my computer. That's it.
>
>I understand but know we have spoken about two opinions.
>Your opinion, my opinion and I know thousands of other opinions.
The difference is that I keep my opinion for me. I don't try desperately to
make all people around to use adapters or virtual machines.
>Fact is that Arena is Freeware too and we must not make such a work around the
>project.
?????????????????????
I can't believe what I read.
Repeat it, please.
>We have fun to do it if we can see that we come to the end of our
>interest, build by Martin, me and users which gave / give helps.
>
>>
>>
>>>Last comment:
>>>Try ProDeo without the UCI adapter, it works better ... believe me!
>>>
>>>Best
>>>Frank
>>
>> Great suggestion, Frank. As I'm so stupid, I never considered running a
>>winboard engine loaded as a winboard engine. How could I forget that?
>> Answer: it was the first I tried. It crashed. I didn't call uncle Frank
>>crying, I just tried the UCI version. It worked. Good enough for me, I don't
>>need anything else.
>>
>> José C.
>
>
>Crashed not on my PC Jose!
>I have config more as 70 WB engines and no engine crashed.
Congratulations! You're the greatest!
Now tell me, why do you think the program crashed in my PC?
1. Because I'm too stupid to configure it
2. Because windows XP has some kind of problem with the way Arena interfaces
with Pro Deo?
3. Because my dual athlon has some problem?
4. Because Arena has a bug?
5. Because Pro Deo has a bug?
6. I don't care at all as long as it works like a charm with the UCI trick?
I choose 6. What number do you choose?
José C.
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