Author: José Carlos
Date: 12:50:07 08/12/04
Go up one level in this thread
I'll skip a lot of text for the sake of clarity.
>
>Do you have really this opinion?
>I can write what I think about adapters and the other topics. This is completly
>a different to this what I write. If I help to develop a program I try to think
>from the point of view from the others.
>
>In my private opinion we need only WinBoard, no other protocols but if you look
>in the past you can see that I try to make a lot of for UCI.
>
>
>I don't know all opinion to all the different topics. In the most cases I am
>thinking that we have the same opinion. I speak about only one point of view you
>are speaking about it. You try to swichted my word in different sentence, why?
>What is the reason for you to try it. Perhaps you have interest to explain it?
>This discuss with you is for me not easy because you search in each sentence a
>critical point. Perhaps you are maestro for it or the Spain persons like this
>art of discuss. Explain it please?
I've explained my points, but I'll summarize: you're going to make Ed remove
Pro Deo compatibility with Arena. I don't want that to happen.
>Wrong:
>If you congratulate everyone you have to congratulate the team and not one
>person you like. A lot of persons give the ideas and Martin try to programmed
>the ideas. We like it, that the others can see ... this is the work in a team
>becuase Martin Blume or others alone have never a chance to programmed such a
>software. And this is a clearly advantage we have and with this advantage we
>have all possiblitys to make more with only ... one programmer!
I can congratulate whoever I want. Martin did a great job. I don't know what
good job did you do. If you happen to explain, please...
>And very nice is the open concept. The others can look in our development area
>(ASA) and can find a lot of ideas we listed. We are open all the times, for
>helps, public ideas, open support and and and ...
Yes, I agree with that concept. When you want to buy a home that is going to
be built, it's nice if you suggest the architect: "I'd like big windows, an
interior stairs to the first floor and a big garden". But who does the job?
>The combination of all was the success for Frank's Chess Page and the others
>webpages with the same ideas ... Arena ... and we hope that over animation much
>other are following.
>
>
>I am thinking about but why I have thinking about a successfull project with
>this ideas. I say not bad things here, give me only one example for a bad
>sentence in my postings. You can search a long time.
Would that help? I guess it wouldn't, so let's skip discussing personal.
>> Fair again. Have your FAQ, and your children and your job and your ASA. And
>>enjoy them all.
>
>I like my live a lot!
>I am sure I make good things in my job and private with my hobby. And for sure I
>am happy with my family, wife, childrens ...
>
>I wish me that more people around the world can write such things but everyone
>must hold the own flag for all what the persons to in the live. We are speaking
>about chess and I am sure that I try to make all what I can for make the hobby
>more interesting. Today I have more fun as for 5-6 years with computer chess.
>Today I have all this what I wish me for 5-6 years. So I am thinking ... Frank
>you can do it and you can try it, you will have it ... please make it.
>
>I know that different others have a bigger problems with it and used my work and
>try to blame me since many years. Why not, if the persons have a good feeling
>with this it's OK for me, because the others can good sleeping with such actions
>and believe I can good sleeping.
I said "fair again". Didn't say anything against that.
>> *** IMPORTANT POINT ***
>> Don't blame others for what you decide is good or bad for your team. You get a
>>gift, either with Pro Deo or Faile. You, and only you, can choose what to do
>>with the gift. You can decide that writing a GUI that interfaces them both is
>>your main goal. Right: do it! But don't blame the people who gives you the gift
>>for not getting _your_ goals!
>
>We gave a gift too Jose.
>With more as 50.000 downloads in the latest months and more with 82.000
>downloads this year. A lot of persons have fun with our work and I am sure the
>persons have fun with others works too. But what you say here is not my topic.
Yes it has. My only point is: if you want to do something, go on, do it, but
don't expect everyone will want to do it with you. That's all.
>We have a problem with an other free software because our right programming
>software crashed in tourneys and users await an update from us.
Then your users are wrong. It's that simple. Tell them that other buggy
software is not supported by Arena. It's easy!
>The programmer
>of Rebel can solved the problem very easy and all the Arena users have more fun
>with ProDeo and the problem is solved. This is more easy for all of us and this
>have nothing to do with that what you wrote here.
It has everything to do. If the programmer of Pro Deo has a problem to
interface with Arena, it is *his* problem. Don't make it yours. Just tell your
users. I can't understand why you don't do it.
>> You know you have that "not finding the rigth words" problem very often in
>>english, yes? Then, why not delegate that task? It is fair to send *1* email to
>>Ed with something like: "Dear Ed, we in Arena team appreciate very much your
>>free program and would like to inform you about some incompatibilities with our
>>GUI. Our users would be really grateful if you could have a look at the
>>following list: ...". I'm sure Ed's reaction would be very positive to this
>>message.
>
>I don't like mails. Mails are against my intention to make things in a group.
Then, the problem is on your side. *You* don't like mails. Again, you end up
with 2 options: tell the users Pro Deo is not supported or ask Martin to
implement some trick. I, personally, prefer the good and simple option of
sending *1* mail to Ed with kind words.
>Animation and to build groups are more important as private mails. We have fora
>and we have to learn to used this for user friendly. This is a big order for all
>of us because we can see every day all the different opinions. The problem with
>Ed is an other problem, not what you wrote here. You can read my latest answer
>from today of the message of Ed. I have no problem to write this official
>because I have no secretes.
I don't have an opinion about that. It's not my business.
>GOOD!
>Thanks for the private information.
>I see that others give some private information too and I like it because I like
>to make it for a better discuss feeling.
>>
>>
>> For Averno? Very few, yes. Fortunately (it means it works).
>
>Have a long time not work with Averno. Will try the engine in the next times. At
>the moment I download a lot of engines and must read the readme files, look in
>the playing style etc., like that in my free time more as to see games 1.000
>from Ruffian :-)
Averno is almost an abandoned project. I can't hardly find time to work on it.
My life is too complicated for chess programming at the present.
>> So what? I don't know what point do you want to make with this example, sorry.
>
>The answer of one of your comments.
>Will say that you are thinking that the most have no problems with a software
>today. This is right but if you have 10 persons which problems you have a lot of
>work :-) In the work I made for different companays I see the main problem in
>support on the site of the users. Not on the site of the developers.
>
>In my opinion after all my work with support mails:
>
>60% of alls support mails are nomally questions.
>Easy to answer ...
>
>15% are more or less ...
>I don't understand the software (speaking not from Arena, speaking from
>different things I made with support). For Arena maybe 20% because the persons
>search options from others and don't find the options. A short time later the
>same persons are writing ... great software, I like Arena and much more
>possiblitys I like :-)
>
>5% are persons which have nothing to do ...
>
>20% are problems from others, which find the way to me. I can write a book about
>it and much readers here know about what I write here. I have around 8.300
>addresses in my address book and give much readers and members from CCC support
>in the latest 6 years. Not all have interest to add a question directly in a
>forum. I am sure that others companays have can write about the same.
>
>My mail backup is 4.7 GB only Chess.
>From yourself, let me look ... "xx" mails in Frank's Chess Page times. Topic
>here your program Averno and the downloads on my older webpage. Thinking on it
>if everyone send me "xx" mails in 6 years :-)
It was a long time ago. I have nothing to complain about those days, of
course, but we're talking about the present.
>> Sorry Frank, but this is stupid. You first complain that Pro Deo generates
>>thousands of emails at you because it has problems under Arena.
>
>I never speak about thounsands of eMails.
>With more sentence from yourself it's more and more easy to answer :-)
>You try to find bad things in my comments :-)
Not at all. I know you said a lot of mails. If you said hundreds or thousands,
I don't remember. Is it important?
>A never ending storry if we discuss a long time :-)
>But I have time :-))
>
>OK, again:
>I saw a problem after my experience a long time before I write about it. On the
>first times TheKing are available I gave a explanation on Arena webpages. I look
>in WB Forum, a persons wrote about it, and try to explain. Today we have around
>2.000 questions in German fora every month about the same problem. The problem
>with ProDeo is compare to it and I see that the topic are unclear. Look in the
>fora we have you can see what I mean. A lot of discuss about configurations and
>this in combination with the mails I got ... I am thinking ... stop it to the
>right time.
"Pro Deo is not compatible to Arena". Easy solution.
>I know that freeware is a gift Jose.
>You have not to explain what freeware is ...
>Believe me I know it after all the work I do for freeware.
>my mail backup ... i need now the second DVD for my backup.
>To give helps for free is also a gift, not only the program which is free!
I don't disagree here.
>>>Not interesting what the programmer have written.
>>
>>
>> *** IMPORTANT POINT ***
>> You can't listen, you want everybody to do what you want. You must learn to
>>live with other people opinions and insterests. And accept that what you want,
>>is not always compatible with what others want.
>
>You means I have to learned it :-))
>You speak with the wrong persons Jose.
Your words: "Not interesting what the programmer have written".
>I don't know an other persons which try to make so many things for computer
>chess in the latest year. Every day again and again, so many hours and you will
>explain me such things. You are on the false address. Maybe I can explain and
>you have to learn, really! It seems you are very young or I don't have an
>explanation about that what you wrote here.
Your words: "Not interesting what the programmer have written".
Am I too young or did you write you don't care about the programmer opinion?
>The way I go can't be wrong all the time.
>We can speak about it if you can say to me the following:
>
>Frank, I know a person which have more hits on webpages in the latest six year
>as yourself in computer chess area.
You have many hits. Yes. I don't know if more or less than ChessBase or
Chessmaster. But the number of hits is irrelevant for this discussion, I think.
>Again:
>This is a work in the group and not my work alone.
>Animation, group building and a good idea have a chance.
>If you will not understand it you have to learn a lot Jose!
Teach me. Should I encourage others programmers to remove compatibility with
Arena, as you do? Would I be more knowledgeable then?
>With other words:
>I accept your opinion but to explain me what freeware is?
>You write on the false address!
Then your attitude is even worse. Unless saying "thanks for the gift", you say
"it's creates me problems, fix it".
>Martin and others have an other opinion about it. We are a team and our work is
>good. You can pick your favorits persons from a group, no problem but thinking
>about what you wrote here. The results Arena is not a result from Martin alone.
>I work since 2 years daily 3-5 hours on the project. Others persons works hard
>on the projcet too.
I don't know what your "work" is. I only know Martin work is great. I don't
choose a person from a group. I *know* how hard is to write that code. I admire
he who can write it: Martin.
>> That ("WB compatible engine") is just a label, like "fast searcher" or "good
>>tactician". There're millions of details behind the labels and you are not
>>capable to make conclusions against the author of the program. Only he know what
>>degree of compatibility he has implemented and why.
>
>We are speaking not about the playing style of ProDeo.
>I speak with you about the problem we have.
>
>If you like to switched the topic we can discuss in an other thread.
I don't switch anything. You said it well: a problem *you* had. Your problem.
>I say to the author:
>Ed, we have a problem with ProDeo ...
>I give an explanation about the problem and you try to start a discuss about 100
>different things around computer chess with me.
Read the thread again and don't lie. I wrote to Ed: "please, don't remove
Arena compatibility just because Frank bothered you". Then you started this long
discussion.
>> Again, that's your decision. You can't force other people to do things that
>>make you proud.
>
>Again:
>I don't force others.
>I say, our team have a good WB / UCI support and we have a problem with ProDeo
>and this is not to solved from the programmer of Arena. Not more not less ...
Again, easy solution: "Pro Deo is not supported by Arena". End of the problem.
>Maybe you don't know why we have computer chess fora:
>Not only for critical discuss Jose or for different opinions!
>We can make more with a good forum system. We can switched important information
>to make different things better for all of us.
>Perpaps in your opinion I am wrong again?
Not at all, Frank.
>> Your opinions, ok? Well, let me have *my* opinions and *Ed* have his opinions
>>and everybody have their own opinions.
>
>Here we have the same opinion :-)
>But if I work only after my opinion my own work are bad and my webpages visit
>only an hand full persons.
>
>01. More important as the own opinion are the opinions in a group of persons.
>Find out right or not right, the own opinion must not right.
Even more important: repect others opinions.
>02. After this it's better to build a new opinion.
>
>I have learned in my live to see a situation:
>
>01. What are the other person thinking!
>02. I try to understand the other opinion!
>03. I am thinking about it ...
>04. I inform about the opinions by the others
>05. And not I compare it with the own opinion!
>
>In your case and in this situation for me not each time possible.
>I see that you try to find or better you are searching comments by myself for
>your main opinion! Not easy for me because, your opinion about my persons seems
>to be bad and to try to find a good way in a discuss is in the most cases not
>possible.
I don't have any personal problem with your person.
>No I have written my opinion!
>
>Bad this is not important for me:
>Important for me is the person Jose Carlos. I try to understand him and sitting
>on my PC for comment his message. I try to find a way with Carlos.
>
>> Again... if you decide to make yourself the "trouble solver", that's great!
>>Solve the problems and shut up!
>
>What is shut up?
>I don't know this word!
>Help me to understand English better maybe I have to learnd much words?
It only means not complaining about others not doing what you want. It wasn't
meant as an insult or something. If I offended you, I apologyze.
>Look, this is my art to answer of such a bad word.
>I am wrong with it?
>
>>You want to solve problems... or do you want
>>*others* to solve problems? Let the others then decide whether they want to
>>solve problems or not. Be coherent with your own decision. *You*, solve the
>>problems if you want. Is this so difficult to understand?
>
>The others are important for me Carlos.
>everyone which have a good idea is important for me because everyone give the
>group a new animation. You with Averno a long time, Ed with all the work around
>computer chess and a lot of others. I never say to this group of persons "shut
>up".
>>
>> Maybe you need a million examples to make me understand it, because I see it
>>as nonsense. You want to make groups? Great, do it! What the fuck does that have
>>to do with bothering others to do what you want? Make your groups, chat, solve
>>your problems... and let the rest of the world live in peace.
>
>I answer of your attacks now!
No attack at all. Just bad wording. Sorry.
>But it seems that I have written enough!
>In German we say:
>Wait I asked my Spain neighbor ...
>Oh the Spain persons say the same :-)
>
>Carlos, if you don't like my person why you search such a discuss with me?
>The question I asked people which don't like my name!
>
>Perhaps you can give me an answer?
My answer is: I don't have a personal problem with you. I just don't like your
attitude in this particular issue.
>> Yes, I'm very much worried about what will be mu hobby in 1000 years from now.
>>Come on! Improving the protocol is nice, sure, but taking it as "our future
>>depends on it" makes me laugh.
>
>Seems that you don't understand what we have today.
>Compatibilitys bring the persons in one group!
>Now an animation have more success!
>
>The most discuss we find today in chess fora about computer chess have to do
>with the protocols.
>
>Example:
>User b like it to organice an engine tournament with Averno.
>the user collect different other engine and we discuss about the results.
>
>01. After your opinion this have nothing to do with protocols.
>02. After my opinion are the reason for such a discuss the protocols.
>
>We have never such a discuss if each programmer work on his own protocols. Only
>10-15% of the persons buyed two PC for engine-engine matches and much of us find
>the way to computer chess with all the solved compatibility problems.
Compatibility is fine. But non-compatibility is not the end of the world.
>> If you want to improve something, just do it. You'll be very welcome. But
>>don't want to do the work, you want others to do it for you.
>
>Right!
>To work alone is boring for me!
This is the key point.
>> Live with it. Freeware is a gift. Take it or ignore it, but it's very ugly to
>>receive a gift and say "improve it or it's worthless for me".
>
>Yes, we have many fun to see that so many persons have fun on our Freeware
>Arena. Believe I know what freeware it ... again!
>>>I understand but know we have spoken about two opinions.
>>>Your opinion, my opinion and I know thousands of other opinions.
>>
>>
>> The difference is that I keep my opinion for me. I don't try desperately to
>>make all people around to use adapters or virtual machines.
>>
>>>Fact is that Arena is Freeware too and we must not make such a work around the
>>>project.
>>
>>
>> ?????????????????????
>> I can't believe what I read.
>> Repeat it, please.
>
>That Arena is Freeware too?
>We must not make such a work around Arena but we make it for free. We have fun
>on it and we have interest to help that the hobby for all of us is a little bit
>more interesting. This is one part for the group, you gave a part with your
>program too. Nice Jose, we have perhaps the same opinion and have not a reason
>to search other things in our words.
Ok, maybe I misunderstood your words.
>>>Crashed not on my PC Jose!
>>>I have config more as 70 WB engines and no engine crashed.
>>
>>
>> Congratulations! You're the greatest!
>
>The typical comment after all what I read from yourself!
No, it's the typical comment after being called stupid.
>> Now tell me, why do you think the program crashed in my PC?
>>
>> 1. Because I'm too stupid to configure it
>
>Everyone which have a support problem thinking about it.
>But only a hand full persons say ... oh, I made a mistake!
True. Time to say it yourself?
>> 2. Because windows XP has some kind of problem with the way Arena interfaces
>>with Pro Deo?
>
>Don't think so!
>
>> 3. Because my dual athlon has some problem?
>
>Dual Athlon!
>I don't like this hardware.
>Must repair must server problems with dual Athlon system in the latest months.
>Of course we have running systems with Athlons.
>
>> 4. Because Arena has a bug?
>
>And the others engines works fine?
>But it's possible. Chances 2 to 98
>
>> 5. Because Pro Deo has a bug?
>
>98 to 2 after my experience with the actual Arena version.
>Give me from the 240 programs 2% WB engines which have a problem under Arena.
>
>My comment are normally not good but in fact the software Arena is strong and
>have no bigger problems with UCI and WB engines.
You don't seem to understand my answer. I said "I don't care where is the bug,
I have a workaround, and that's more than enough for me".
José C.
>> 6. I don't care at all as long as it works like a charm with the UCI trick?
>>
>> I choose 6. What number do you choose?
>>
>> José C.
>
>Best
>Frank
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