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Subject: Re: Very interesting position.. Crafty vs ProDeo

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 16:17:31 08/23/04

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On August 23, 2004 at 18:31:22, David Dahlem wrote:

>On August 23, 2004 at 18:23:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On August 23, 2004 at 18:19:06, David Dahlem wrote:
>>
>>>On August 23, 2004 at 16:23:19, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 23, 2004 at 15:51:59, David Dahlem wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>[D]6k1/1q3ppp/r7/1rp1P1n1/3p1P2/1P1R2PP/2Q4K/B4R2 b - - 0 1
>>>>>
>>>>>This position is taken from this thread:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?383382
>>>>>
>>>>>I let Crafty play white and ProDeo play black from this position at 40 moves in
>>>>>80 minutes. Crafty liked 4.Qe2 for a long time, but finally switched to 4. Rdd1.
>>>>>There are a lot of critical positions in this game, and ProDeo seems to
>>>>>understand them all.
>>>>
>>>>>Can any engine as white win or draw against ProDeo from
>>>>>this position?
>>>>
>>>>If ProDeo can't the blame is on ProDeo itself, the position is won for black. On
>>>>a "40 moves in 80 minutes" level I doubt any engine will get away with a draw,
>>>>else shame on ProDeo.
>>>>
>>>>My best,
>>>>
>>>>Ed
>>>
>>>We have a controversy! Ed Schröder says Nxh3 wins, and Robert Hyatt says it's a
>>>draw. Who is right. :-)
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Dave
>>
>>Incorrect.  :)
>>
>>Ed says it wins.  I said it doesn't win.
>
>Hmmm... If it doesn't win, then it's a draw or loss, right?

Are we talking long-term or for the current position.  When I first looked at
it, I thought "I don't see any reason that Nxh3 wins for black here..."  And
that was my original comment.  Stuart found a mate that wasn't there after Nxh3
Kxh3, and then for fun I decided to analyze it a bit for myself and didn't see
anything convincing.  And my general rule is that if I toss a piece (Nxh3) I
need to see _something_ concrete to play that against a computer, as otherwise
it will probably turn from an interesting attacking position to a lost position,
quickly.

So while black may well win, I was immediately suspicious of a nearly +2 eval
for black, in the absence of anything concrete...




>
>Regards
>Dave
>
>Crafty said it was a draw as did a
>>couple of other programs.  I just don't see a win yet, myself.  nor a loss...



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