Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:04:13 08/23/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 23, 2004 at 19:41:04, David Dahlem wrote: >On August 23, 2004 at 19:17:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On August 23, 2004 at 18:31:22, David Dahlem wrote: >> >>>On August 23, 2004 at 18:23:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On August 23, 2004 at 18:19:06, David Dahlem wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 23, 2004 at 16:23:19, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 23, 2004 at 15:51:59, David Dahlem wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>[D]6k1/1q3ppp/r7/1rp1P1n1/3p1P2/1P1R2PP/2Q4K/B4R2 b - - 0 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This position is taken from this thread: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?383382 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I let Crafty play white and ProDeo play black from this position at 40 moves in >>>>>>>80 minutes. Crafty liked 4.Qe2 for a long time, but finally switched to 4. Rdd1. >>>>>>>There are a lot of critical positions in this game, and ProDeo seems to >>>>>>>understand them all. >>>>>> >>>>>>>Can any engine as white win or draw against ProDeo from >>>>>>>this position? >>>>>> >>>>>>If ProDeo can't the blame is on ProDeo itself, the position is won for black. On >>>>>>a "40 moves in 80 minutes" level I doubt any engine will get away with a draw, >>>>>>else shame on ProDeo. >>>>>> >>>>>>My best, >>>>>> >>>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>We have a controversy! Ed Schröder says Nxh3 wins, and Robert Hyatt says it's a >>>>>draw. Who is right. :-) >>>>> >>>>>Regards >>>>>Dave >>>> >>>>Incorrect. :) >>>> >>>>Ed says it wins. I said it doesn't win. >>> >>>Hmmm... If it doesn't win, then it's a draw or loss, right? >> >>Are we talking long-term or for the current position. > >Long-term, of course. Does Nxh3 win, draw, or lose the game is the issue. Would >you play as white against ProDeo from this position, and post the game here? :-) First I can't play any commercial program myself since I don't have any and don't run any machines where they could run. :) Unless you have a linux version tucked away... This particular case is not a big issue with me. I personally believe that the +2 eval is wrong. And it would be interesting to keep the same position, but move a white piece or pawn and see what happens and if black would still play the same. IE maybe white bishop at d1 rather than a1. That changes the position although I have not given a lot of thought to this... I worry about huge scores that may or may not be right when things are as unclear as that position is. IE no forced tactics for a _long_ time... > >Regards >Dave > > >When I first looked at >>it, I thought "I don't see any reason that Nxh3 wins for black here..." And >>that was my original comment. Stuart found a mate that wasn't there after Nxh3 >>Kxh3, and then for fun I decided to analyze it a bit for myself and didn't see >>anything convincing. And my general rule is that if I toss a piece (Nxh3) I >>need to see _something_ concrete to play that against a computer, as otherwise >>it will probably turn from an interesting attacking position to a lost position, >>quickly. >> >>So while black may well win, I was immediately suspicious of a nearly +2 eval >>for black, in the absence of anything concrete... >> >> >> >> >>> >>>Regards >>>Dave >>> >>>Crafty said it was a draw as did a >>>>couple of other programs. I just don't see a win yet, myself. nor a loss...
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