Author: David Dahlem
Date: 21:01:16 08/23/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 23, 2004 at 23:04:13, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On August 23, 2004 at 19:41:04, David Dahlem wrote: > >>On August 23, 2004 at 19:17:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On August 23, 2004 at 18:31:22, David Dahlem wrote: >>> >>>>On August 23, 2004 at 18:23:55, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 23, 2004 at 18:19:06, David Dahlem wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On August 23, 2004 at 16:23:19, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On August 23, 2004 at 15:51:59, David Dahlem wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>[D]6k1/1q3ppp/r7/1rp1P1n1/3p1P2/1P1R2PP/2Q4K/B4R2 b - - 0 1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This position is taken from this thread: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?383382 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I let Crafty play white and ProDeo play black from this position at 40 moves in >>>>>>>>80 minutes. Crafty liked 4.Qe2 for a long time, but finally switched to 4. Rdd1. >>>>>>>>There are a lot of critical positions in this game, and ProDeo seems to >>>>>>>>understand them all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Can any engine as white win or draw against ProDeo from >>>>>>>>this position? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If ProDeo can't the blame is on ProDeo itself, the position is won for black. On >>>>>>>a "40 moves in 80 minutes" level I doubt any engine will get away with a draw, >>>>>>>else shame on ProDeo. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ed >>>>>> >>>>>>We have a controversy! Ed Schröder says Nxh3 wins, and Robert Hyatt says it's a >>>>>>draw. Who is right. :-) >>>>>> >>>>>>Regards >>>>>>Dave >>>>> >>>>>Incorrect. :) >>>>> >>>>>Ed says it wins. I said it doesn't win. >>>> >>>>Hmmm... If it doesn't win, then it's a draw or loss, right? >>> >>>Are we talking long-term or for the current position. >> >>Long-term, of course. Does Nxh3 win, draw, or lose the game is the issue. Would >>you play as white against ProDeo from this position, and post the game here? :-) > > >First I can't play any commercial program myself since I don't have any and >don't run any machines where they could run. :) Unless you have a linux >version tucked away... > >This particular case is not a big issue with me. I personally believe that the >+2 eval is wrong. And it would be interesting to keep the same position, but >move a white piece or pawn and see what happens and if black would still play >the same. IE maybe white bishop at d1 rather than a1. That changes the >position although I have not given a lot of thought to this... > >I worry about huge scores that may or may not be right when things are as >unclear as that position is. IE no forced tactics for a _long_ time... Ok, i was halfway teasing you about you playing ProDeo. Regarding the huge score, it doesn't seem unclear to ProDeo, it's evaluation doesn't drop but continues to gradually increase. Perhaps this is because it's a positional issue and not a tactical issue. :-) BTW, ProDeo is not commercial. Regards Dave > > > >> >>Regards >>Dave >> >> >>When I first looked at >>>it, I thought "I don't see any reason that Nxh3 wins for black here..." And >>>that was my original comment. Stuart found a mate that wasn't there after Nxh3 >>>Kxh3, and then for fun I decided to analyze it a bit for myself and didn't see >>>anything convincing. And my general rule is that if I toss a piece (Nxh3) I >>>need to see _something_ concrete to play that against a computer, as otherwise >>>it will probably turn from an interesting attacking position to a lost position, >>>quickly. >>> >>>So while black may well win, I was immediately suspicious of a nearly +2 eval >>>for black, in the absence of anything concrete... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Regards >>>>Dave >>>> >>>>Crafty said it was a draw as did a >>>>>couple of other programs. I just don't see a win yet, myself. nor a loss...
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