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Subject: Re: A few questions

Author: David Dahlem

Date: 20:09:24 08/25/04

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On August 25, 2004 at 23:00:08, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On August 25, 2004 at 19:58:21, José Carlos wrote:
>
>>On August 25, 2004 at 17:41:22, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>I subscribe to a normal "legal philosophy" from the US.  For a "crime" to be
>>>committed, a couple of things are needed.
>>>
>>>(1) Intent.  You need to knowingly break the law.  IE if you walk into a store,
>>>see a dollar bill laying on the floor, and you pick it up without thinking, you
>>>_could_ be accused of theft of property.  But there was no intent since the
>>>floor is not a normal place for someone to leave "property" that is valuable.
>>>No crime was committed.
>>>
>>>I believe this case fits that scenario.
>>>
>>>(2) Victim.  Someone has to be victimized, directly or indirectly.  He's not
>>>tried to enter any ACM chess events which would victimize participants.  He has
>>>not publicly claimed that his code was 100% original that I have seen, so I am
>>>not a victim.
>>>
>>>This is an unfortunate event, but one that doesn't leave me nearly as aggravated
>>>as some of the other more famous cases, like bionic, le petite, voyager, et. al.
>>> They definitely claimed the code to be original when it was not.
>>
>>  Hi Bob, I'd don't quite understand your position. I'd like to know your
>>opinion about these questions, to help me clarify:
>>
>>  -shoud current version of ElChinito be allowed to participate in computer
>>chess events without indicating it derives from Crafty?
>
>No.  Not even if it is clearly written that it is a derived program.  That
>simply won't work.
>
>>  -should Castillo and Tang be penalized somehow for previous participations?
>
>
>Question is, what have they played in besides Frank's private tournaments.  I've
>never seen them in an event that I can call..

From http://www.playwitharena.com/directory/partner.htm#elchinito

EL Chinito results (computer chess tournaments since 2001):

2001, 3rd French programmers Massy 3.5/6 points, ranking 5 of 12
2002, 9th France-ch Massy 8/11 points, ranking 3 of 12
2002, 4th French programmers Massy, Champion 5/6 points, ranking 7 of 12
2002, 10th WCCC Maastricht 4.5/9 points, ranking 10 of 18
2003, 5th French programmers Massy 4/6 points, ranking 3 of 18
2003, 10th France-ch Massy 4.5/7 points, ranking 3 of 14
2003, 18th WMCCC Graz 5/11 points, ranking 07 of 15

Regards
Dave

>
>
>>  -is the copywright in Quisinky's page legal?
>
>I don't see how if any of the source comes from Crafty, which it obviously did.
>
>
>
>>  -is hidding the truth acceptable when not explicity saying lies?
>
>Of course not...
>
>
>
>>  -what would you think if other 100 engines would be proven to be in the same
>>situation of ElChinito?
>
>
>I wouldn't be _that_ surprised. :(
>
>
>
>>  -should ElChinito change its name now to explicity indicate it derives from
>>Crafty?
>>  -should current released versions of ElChinito be released again with source
>>code included?
>>
>
>
>I don't really care about the last point.  The problem is that this is something
>that shouldn't have happened, no doubt.  But as I said, I don't see any massive
>attempt at fraud or anything so far.  Again, I am basing my opinion only on what
>I know or have seen.  There could be much that I don't know, or there could be
>nothing more to it.
>
>
>
>>  José C.



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