Author: Kurt Utzinger
Date: 23:24:40 08/28/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 29, 2004 at 02:09:11, martin fierz wrote:
>On August 29, 2004 at 01:45:53, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>
>>On August 28, 2004 at 18:40:43, martin fierz wrote:
>>
>>>aloha!
>>>
>>>after all the cloning talk, here's something to test your favorite engine with:
>>>i played a weakish IM today and got the following position after 56...Qg6+
>>>57.Kf2:
>>>
>>>[D] 8/6kp/8/3p4/1P4q1/P4p2/5K2/4Q3 b - - 0 57
>>>
>>>it took me a couple of seconds to see that after 57...Qh4+ 58. Kf1 Qxe1+ 59.
>>>Kxe1 Kf6 black is completely winning due to the floating square (it's nice to
>>>see that reading dvoretzky is some good!) and so i played that and won :-)
>>>
>>>interestingly, when i entered this game in chessbase running fritz7 in the
>>>background, fritz didn't seem to see this at all within a minute or so. so
>>>question to all: how long does your favorite engine need to see the line ...Qh4+
>>>Kf1 Qxe1+ with a HUGE plus score (i.e. +9 or so - that is what my assessment of
>>>the position was after a couple of seconds...)?
>>>
>>>i don't want to claim that this is the only win, but it is by far the easiest
>>>one, and fritz 7 misses it completely.
>>>
>>>cheers
>>> martin
>>
>>
>> Hi Martin
>> A most interesting position showing the difference
>> of thinking between human and machine. You "know"
>> that the exchange of queens is an easy win, the
>> engines have no idea.
>
>hi kurt,
>
>yes and no. for example, crafty knows something about split vs connected passers
>and unlike hiarcs in its analysis you posted below would play 60...Qe4+ and
>exchange queens for a winning pawn endgame. crafty also first gave a line with
>Q-exchange which it wrongly evaluated as winning for black, when in fact it was
>a win for white. my fritz 7 seems to be more on the agnostic side, even after
>you enter the pawn ending it doesn't give high scores for a couple of seconds up
>to ply 17 or something like that.
>so this position shows a bit whether an engine has this type of pawn-endgame
>transition knowledge or not, it also shows what the engine does about
>transitions to pawn endings. this transition has been a subject here a couple of
>times; some engines are better at it than others (i would very much like to see
>what yace makes of this - dieter?)
>
>
>> But there is one important
>> thing to consider here: for computers 57...Qg2
>> wins too and this line may be the reason that
>> the engines can't find the more human like 57...Qh4
>> 58.Kf2 Qxe1 within reasonable time.
>
>that is probably true, but it would be easy to modify this position so that only
>the Q-exchange wins - then only engines which manage such transitions would
>solve it. [...]
Hi Martin
Would you please modify the position in this way.
I have not succeeded in doing so.
Kurt
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