Author: martin fierz
Date: 23:37:47 08/28/04
Go up one level in this thread
On August 29, 2004 at 02:24:40, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >On August 29, 2004 at 02:09:11, martin fierz wrote: > >>On August 29, 2004 at 01:45:53, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >> >>>On August 28, 2004 at 18:40:43, martin fierz wrote: >>> >>>>aloha! >>>> >>>>after all the cloning talk, here's something to test your favorite engine with: >>>>i played a weakish IM today and got the following position after 56...Qg6+ >>>>57.Kf2: >>>> >>>>[D] 8/6kp/8/3p4/1P4q1/P4p2/5K2/4Q3 b - - 0 57 >>>> >>>>it took me a couple of seconds to see that after 57...Qh4+ 58. Kf1 Qxe1+ 59. >>>>Kxe1 Kf6 black is completely winning due to the floating square (it's nice to >>>>see that reading dvoretzky is some good!) and so i played that and won :-) >>>> >>>>interestingly, when i entered this game in chessbase running fritz7 in the >>>>background, fritz didn't seem to see this at all within a minute or so. so >>>>question to all: how long does your favorite engine need to see the line ...Qh4+ >>>>Kf1 Qxe1+ with a HUGE plus score (i.e. +9 or so - that is what my assessment of >>>>the position was after a couple of seconds...)? >>>> >>>>i don't want to claim that this is the only win, but it is by far the easiest >>>>one, and fritz 7 misses it completely. >>>> >>>>cheers >>>> martin >>> >>> >>> Hi Martin >>> A most interesting position showing the difference >>> of thinking between human and machine. You "know" >>> that the exchange of queens is an easy win, the >>> engines have no idea. >> >>hi kurt, >> >>yes and no. for example, crafty knows something about split vs connected passers >>and unlike hiarcs in its analysis you posted below would play 60...Qe4+ and >>exchange queens for a winning pawn endgame. crafty also first gave a line with >>Q-exchange which it wrongly evaluated as winning for black, when in fact it was >>a win for white. my fritz 7 seems to be more on the agnostic side, even after >>you enter the pawn ending it doesn't give high scores for a couple of seconds up >>to ply 17 or something like that. >>so this position shows a bit whether an engine has this type of pawn-endgame >>transition knowledge or not, it also shows what the engine does about >>transitions to pawn endings. this transition has been a subject here a couple of >>times; some engines are better at it than others (i would very much like to see >>what yace makes of this - dieter?) >> >> >>> But there is one important >>> thing to consider here: for computers 57...Qg2 >>> wins too and this line may be the reason that >>> the engines can't find the more human like 57...Qh4 >>> 58.Kf2 Qxe1 within reasonable time. >> >>that is probably true, but it would be easy to modify this position so that only >>the Q-exchange wins - then only engines which manage such transitions would >>solve it. [...] > > Hi Martin > Would you please modify the position in this way. > I have not succeeded in doing so. > Kurt hi kurt check my post "another endgame test position" in the same thread! i hope i didn't make a mistake :-) cheers martin
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