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Subject: Re: How I Learned to Stop Hating 141

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 07:50:29 09/03/04

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On September 03, 2004 at 10:29:11, Stuart Cracraft wrote:

>On September 03, 2004 at 03:15:07, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On September 03, 2004 at 00:43:27, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>
>>>So today I find out that my recapture is bad. It must be. Bob said so.
>>>
>>>I take 1 minute to reimplement it to be "extend on 2nd capture on the same
>>>square in a row" because I heard someone else talking about that's the
>>>way they do it and got a surprise a minute after that.
>>>
>>>The result is that Qxf4 for Win-at-Chess comes into view
>>>in 98 seconds and holds after having been missed after seemingly
>>>endless runtime with the old bad recapture in or out.
>> Of course
>>>it is nothing like the 13,000 nodes that Tord (was it?) solves
>>>141 in. Perhaps we should have a contest for who solves 141 in
>>>the fewest moves.
>>
>>I see no point for it.
>>
>>I am sure that I can solve Qxf4 even in less nodes than tord by adding some
>>stupid extensions but this is not the target and the target is to play better.
>>
>>I discovered that I can solve more positions in the ecmgcp if I reduce my
>>evaluation based pruning but again it is not the target and the main question is
>>if I can play better with it.
>>
>> He would surely win. It takes me 24 million.
>>>I admire a search that is so directed in so few nodes. Surely
>>>we pay homage to Berliner with it, eh? Retire in peace in Florida
>>>and then two category 4 storms hit. Unlucky fellow.
>>>
>>>Alpha=-1182 Beta=-682 Maxdepth=9999999 MaxTime=100000
>>> 1/13  g2f1  0.01 -953      945 g2f1 f4d5
>>> 2/13  g2f1  0.01 -953     1535 g2f1 f4d5 c1g5
>>> 3/15  g2f1  0.02 -953     5010 g2f1 f4d5 c1g5 d5f6
>>> 4/23  g2f1  0.09 -953    21387 g2f1 f4d5 b3d5 c6d5 c1c7 d6c7 f1g1
>>> 5/25  g2f1  0.65 -953   179404 g2f1 b5b4 b3a4 f4d5 f6g5 d5e7
>>> 6/44  g2f1  3.15 -953   728459 g2f1 b5b4 b3a4 f4d5 f6g5 d5e7
>>> 7/48> g2f1 64.75 -703 15048349 g2f1 e8c8 f1g1 c8e8 c1b1 f4e2 g1g2 e2d4
>>> 7/48  c1f4 98.86 5113 24322991 c1f4 e8e6 f4g5 d7e7 b3e6 e7e6 h1d1 d6e7
>>> 8/48< c1f4 98.88 4863 24327933 c1f4 e8e6 f4g5 d7e7 b3e6 e7e6 h1d1 d6e7
>>> 8/48  c1f4 108.60 4863 26455348 c1f4 e8e6 f4g5 d7e7 b3e6 e7e6 h1d1 d6e7
>>> 9/48> c1f4 159.87 5113 38207334 c1f4 e8e6 f4g5 d7e7 b3e6 e7e6 h1d1 d6e7
>>>
>>>I know my PV is screwy and wonder why Bxf4 isn't played next. Anyone
>>>know why? To me, Qxf4 followed by Bxf4 and then rook taking along the
>>>H file looks like the natural PV. I wonder if that is another nasty
>>>bug lurking.
>>
>>No
>>
>>After Qxf4 Bxf4 lead to a sinple mate so black has no choice but not to capture.
>>
>>If you extend Bxf4 then it is clear than not playing Bxf4 is not extended so
>>even if both Bxf4 and the alternative are equal you are going to see that Bxf4
>>is losing by mate earlier because of extensions.
>>
>> I am surprised there can be so many remaining considering
>>>a fairly decent run-of-the-mill score on WAC 1-300. The set seems to
>>>have shortcomings. Good for a first year's development effort though.
>>>
>>>I am not able to speed 141 up yet with Moreland's Mate Threat Null extension
>>
>>If you are not able to see it at smaller ply with mate threat extension then you
>>must have a bug and I suspect that you have return beta or return alpha and not
>>return val in your search(otherwise even without checks in the qsearch you could
>>see Qxf4 Bxf4 Rxh5 null Rh8#).
>
>I am glad you raised this as I wanted to talk about. My program is a mixture
>of return(value), return(beta), and return(alpha) and I've not been happy with
>that. My quiescence is mostly return(beta). The main search is a mixture.
>Whenever I make everything return(value), PVS goes weird on me and stops
>solving problems as well (big drop). What should I do?

I think that you may try only return value in case that value is mate or -mate
score like Tord suggested.
I think that the qsearch is the important part that return value can help.

I see no logical point in having return value in the main search when you do not
have return value in the qsearch.

Uri



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