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Subject: Re: ProDeo analysis

Author: Michael Henderson

Date: 12:24:25 09/04/04

Go up one level in this thread


On September 04, 2004 at 14:31:28, Michael Henderson wrote:

>On September 04, 2004 at 14:22:13, Michael Henderson wrote:
>
>>On September 04, 2004 at 12:51:30, David Dahlem wrote:
>>
>>>On September 04, 2004 at 12:39:11, David Dahlem wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 04, 2004 at 11:46:48, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Does someone possess a good test set for testing Perpetual Checks ?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>Another position from the archives:
>>>>
>>>>[D]3r4/5k2/5p2/6pp/5p2/1p6/p2R4/K3R3 b - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>There is perpetual check and stalemate if black plays ...Rxd2. Many programs
>>>>probably find the perpetual coming, but at what time do your favorite programs
>>>>give a 0.0 or near 0.0 score? This position is actually not a draw but a win by
>>>>black.
>>>>
>>>>Regards
>>>>Dave
>>>
>>>ProDeo UCI  UCI1:
>>> 1   00:00 -11.06   1. ... Rxd2
>>> 2   00:00 -10.82   1. ... Rxd2 2.Rh1
>>> 3   00:00 -11.24   1. ... Rxd2 2.Rh1 h4
>>> 4   00:00 -11.20   1. ... Rxd2 2.Rh1 f5 3.Rf1
>>> 5   00:00 -11.55   1. ... Rxd2 2.Rh1 f5 3.Rf1 h4
>>> 6   00:00 -11.09   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kf8 3.Re1 f5 4.Rf1
>>> 7   00:00 -11.19   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kf8 3.Re8+ Kg7 4.Re1 f5 5.Rf1
>>> 8   00:00 -9.14   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kf8 3.Re8+ Kg7 4.Re7+ Kh8 5.Re8+ Kh7
>>>6.Re7+ Kg6 7.Rg7+ Kf5 8.Rxg5+ Ke4 9.Rg1 f3 10.Re1+ Kf4
>>> 9   00:00 -8.66   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kc5 7.Re5+ Kc6
>>>10   00:00 -7.04   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kc7 7.Re7+ Rd7 8.Re1 Kd6 9.Re2 Ra7 10.Rd2+ Ke5
>>>11   00:00 -7.04   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kc5 7.Rc6+ Kd4 8.Rd6+ Ke3 9.Re6+ Kd3 10.Rd6+ Ke2 11.Re6+ Kf1 12.Rxf6 Rd1+
>>>12   00:01 -7.44   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kd7 7.Re7+ Kc8 8.Re8+ Rd8 9.Re1 h4 10.Kb2 Rd3 11.Rc1+ Kb7 12.Rc5
>>>13   00:03 -5.00   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kc5 7.Rc6+ Kd4 8.Rd6+ Ke3 9.Re6+ Kd3 10.Rd6+ Ke2 11.Re6+ Kd3 12.Rd6+ Ke2
>>>13.Re6+
>>>14   00:14 -4.76   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kc7 7.Rc6+ Kd7 8.Rc7+ Ke6 9.Re7+ Kf5 10.Re5+ Kg4 11.Rg5+ Kf3 12.Rg3+ Ke4
>>>13.Rxb3
>>>15   00:42 -4.52   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kc5 7.Rc6+ Kd4 8.Rd6+ Ke3 9.Re6+ Kd3 10.Re3+ Kc4 11.Rc3+ Kd4 12.Rxb3 Re2
>>>13.Rd3+
>>>16   02:46 -4.69   1. ... Rxd2 2.Re7+ Kg6 3.Rg7+ Kf5 4.Rxg5+ Ke6 5.Re5+ Kd6
>>>6.Re6+ Kc7 7.Rc6+ Kd7 8.Rc7+ Ke6
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Dave
>>
>>The thing holding up the 0.00 score is the 50 move rule.  Black takes the rook
>>and definitely holds it before the 50 move rule takes effect.  You would have to
>>make some (x < 50) move rule (or some variant on that) to solve this in
>>reasonable time.
>
>but if this is a won position (i didn't see that last time) then it won't work.
>Why would programs return a draw score if this is a win unless they are doing
>the above?

ok i finally got this straightened out:  moving the rook away wins because the
passed pawns are powerful.  Taking the rook is a draw if you can see the
perpetual checks/stalemate.  So (x < 50) move rule would help.  Also i think you
could make the program go for the winning line that doesn't involve perpetual
checks.



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