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Subject: Re: The Brick Wall

Author: Matthew Hull

Date: 15:57:44 09/19/04

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On September 19, 2004 at 14:38:47, Stuart Cracraft wrote:

>On September 19, 2004 at 12:01:16, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On September 19, 2004 at 11:10:14, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>
>>>Hi -- I am looking for 2 or 3 beta testers who would receive
>>>(full) source code to my program and in return would provide
>>>input and comments about improving the search. They would
>>>simply agree not to redistribute it and in fact discard it after
>>>a week or two of looking at it (and commenting.) The program is in C,
>>>5000 lines. The search and quiescence routines are 600 lines total.
>>>
>>>The reason I am considering this is due to hitting a brick wall at 249/300
>>>on WAC for several weeks now and knowing there are things I just cannot
>>>find or go further with. The above score is at 1 second per position on a
>>>1ghz P3 with a small transposition table. I am told that 270-300 is considered
>>>"good" for this time control on this test. On this same machine
>>>at the same time setting, with WAC, Crafty gets 270/300.
>>>
>>>The kind of beta testers I'm looking for are experienced programmers
>>>who have written their own program and it has long since graduated
>>>from Win-at-Chess as a test suite, perhaps scoring 270 or above at
>>>1 second per move on a Pentium III 1ghz or above. To them, WAC has
>>>become ho-hum and in fact they are currently just sitting on their
>>>laurels without a lot of major advances. Their program has "matured."
>>>They see themselves as senior chess programmers helping less
>>>experienced authors.
>>>
>>>What I would favor
>>>
>>>   1) beta tester with solid program agrees to simultaneous exchange
>>>      of source code
>>>
>>>   --and--
>>>
>>>   2) beta tester agrees to seriously review the quiesce(), search(),
>>>      store(), retrieve(), and iterate() functions.
>>>
>>>I am fine to sign any non-disclosure agreement.
>>>
>>>This is just an attempt to break through a brick wall.
>>>
>>>Stuart
>>
>>What you are really looking for is a "quick fix" to a problem without one.
>>There is no easy way to make a program revolutionarily better.  It is a
>>continual evolutionary process that, for the main ingredient, needs _time_ in
>>copious quantities.
>>
>>There are far better projects to tackle if the goal is "done in 180 days or
>>less".  Chess doesn't fit that very well.  It is more like (for me) not done in
>>36 years and counting...
>
>I don't think a quick fix is what I am looking for. I am attempting not to
>have to reinvent the wheel. I am attempting to build on the shoulders of
>others without, like Sisyphus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus),
>having to roll the boulder up the hill and have it roll back on top of me.
>
>I am attempting to avoid rethinking what has been thought before. That is why
>we are humans and not machines. Writing and speech came about to share
>experience so that individuals would not have to go through the exact same
>experience again if we chose to listen to others and profit from their
>experience perhaps in an even more direct manner as has been done on
>this board between myself and the extensive general help from others.
>
>But now the search has specific issues. General help may not help as
>much. The curve is flattening.
>
>If nobody takes me up on the offer, sobeit. But at least I tried.
>
>I am curious about what are the changes that might take this program from
>250/300 to 270/300 or 280/300 or 290/300 or 299/300. It has generated a life of
>its own, that curiousity. It is not born out of commercial necessity nor to
>attempt to impress others. It is simple, idle curiousity. I've been curious
>about this subject for 36 years since age 10. It is not going to be shelved
>or to go away for som other project. This *is* ***the*** project.
>
>Assuming I got a result like 260/300 or 270/300 or something, would the
>project be done? No -- obviously not. But perhaps I could go to the next
>area knowing that the tactics seemed to be relatively more solid and clearly
>not obviously weak. That would be a useful goal to have completed.
>
>We all set our personal goals. For me, 260/300, then 270/300, then 280/300
>are my goals. 250/300 fell today after a small extension improvement. Does
>the program necessarily play better? Of course I would never say that. But
>that's not my goal. I want only to ensure that on its first test suite it
>has a decent record. Later test suites, endgame suites, etc. will come in
>due time.
>
>Stuart


It might therefore have been better to take a mature program like Crafty, and
spend time understanding how it works, then build on it's "shoulders".




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