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Subject: Re: Root move ordering - an experiment

Author: Stuart Cracraft

Date: 10:44:50 09/29/04

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On September 29, 2004 at 08:22:38, martin fierz wrote:

>On September 28, 2004 at 23:49:01, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>
>>On September 28, 2004 at 16:29:29, martin fierz wrote:
>>
>>>On September 28, 2004 at 13:43:48, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 28, 2004 at 08:44:04, martin fierz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 28, 2004 at 08:19:15, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On September 28, 2004 at 02:14:51, martin fierz wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On September 27, 2004 at 23:45:54, Stuart Cracraft wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I experimented with reordering root ply at iterative depth iply >  1
>>>>>>>>where 1 is the root ply, with the results of iply-1 sorted by the
>>>>>>>>total nodes of quiescence and main search defined as the # of entries
>>>>>>>>for each of those subroutines.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I didn't sort at root node on the first sort by quiescence but instead
>>>>>>>>by my normal scheme though I tried quiescence and it was worse. I felt
>>>>>>>>this gave a better chance to the above method.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I sorted moves at the root ply for iply > 1 in the following way
>>>>>>>>for 7 different parts to the experiment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   sort by normal method (history heuristic, mvv/lva, see, etc.
>>>>>>>>   sort exactly by subtree node count, nothing else
>>>>>>>>   sort by subtree node count added to normal score (hh, mvv/lva, see, etc.)
>>>>>>>>   same as previous but node count x 10 before addition
>>>>>>>>   same as previous but node count x 100 before addition
>>>>>>>>   same as previous but node count x 1000 before addition
>>>>>>>>   same as previous but node count x 10000 before addition
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The results, measured by # right on Win-at-Chess varied from
>>>>>>>>250 for the first in the list above to 234 for the last.
>>>>>>>>Most bunched up between 244-247 except the first was 250,
>>>>>>>>my current best on WAC with handtuning everything.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For me, I'm convinced that this style of sorting root ply is
>>>>>>>>slightly less good for my short searches compared to what I am using:
>>>>>>>>a combination of history, heuristic, see(), and centrality with
>>>>>>>>various bonuses, about a half page of code sprinkled about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The advantage  of sorting root node by subtree is the simplicity.
>>>>>>>>It eliminates about a half a page of code and introduces
>>>>>>>>about a quarter page of code for only slightly lesser results
>>>>>>>>(within 1-2% of my current result) so that is good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Still I think I'll leave it #ifdefed out for now and use it as
>>>>>>>>a baseline that is only improvable upon with handtuning of my
>>>>>>>>current methods and others to be discovered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Stuart
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>...as ed schröder said to me: "terrible testing". he was right, of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>cheers
>>>>>>>  martin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Each to his own.
>>>>>
>>>>>if you get free advice from one of the world's best computer chess programmers
>>>>>it is a good idea to use it. there's not much point writing tons of posts here
>>>>>asking for advice if you don't listen....
>>>>>
>>>>>cheers
>>>>>  martin
>>>>
>>>>Well, condemnations aside, without specific feedback beyond "Oh that's just
>>>>bad" (I can get that at work from the boss or from relatives) -- I don't
>>>>respond well to that kind of input. It is non-constructive.
>>>
>>>my post was meant very constructively :-)
>>>i just posted something about root move ordering a day or two ago, and ed
>>>schröder answered "terrible testing" with a short explanation of why. i expected
>>>you had read that thread, and knew what i meant. if not, read it now!
>>>
>>>cheers
>>>  martin
>>>
>>>PS: if you are not in the habit of reading posts of some particular persons
>>>(like ed, bob etc) on this board, you should get into that too! other people
>>>have something to say too of course, but we do have some
>>>world-class-chess-programmers here and i try to read everything they write...
>>
>>Believe me: I read every character, every sentence, every word, every
>>comma, every dot of Ed S. and Bob H.
>
>good - then i hope you also remember what ed had to say about a similar
>experiment of mine!
>
>cheers
>  martin

Refresh me -- I already spent too much time at this forum!!!!




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