Author: Uri Blass
Date: 07:49:17 11/12/04
Go up one level in this thread
On November 12, 2004 at 09:14:26, Clive Munro wrote: >On November 11, 2004 at 11:57:01, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On November 11, 2004 at 11:34:35, Derek Paquette wrote: >> >>>On November 11, 2004 at 08:17:36, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On November 11, 2004 at 08:11:03, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 11, 2004 at 07:44:01, Andrew Platt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 11, 2004 at 02:15:20, Derek Paquette wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>I play email chess all the time, aswell as blitz games on the net. I also play >>>>>>>engine matches online and this came across. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If someone were to play an email game, say a Grandmaster vs Me, and I was to use >>>>>>>a computer, and the return move time was say 5 days a piece. If I were to keep >>>>>>>Shredder 8 on Infinite analysis for those 5 days per move (say i keep the cpu >>>>>>>very cool and i give it a few hours of break) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>would shredder 8 play a perfect game? or near perfect where the gm would have no >>>>>>>chance without the assistance of another computer? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I know that the longer the time control the better for the computer but to what >>>>>>>end? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>with 5 days per move, that is 120 hours,(7200min) >>>>>>>using the starting position as a bench mark for depth vs time, (where shredder 8 >>>>>>>goes 1 more ply after it doubles its time searching) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I calculate on my athlon 1700xp that after 5 days shredder 8 would reach >>>>>>>.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>depth 21 in 27 minutes...knowing that... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>depth 22 in 54 min >>>>>>>depth 23 in 108 min >>>>>>>depth 24 in 216 min >>>>>>>depth 25 in 432 min >>>>>>>depth 26 in 864 min >>>>>>>depth 27 in 1728 min >>>>>>>depth 28 in 3456 min >>>>>>>depth 29 in 6912 min >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So basically shredder 8 would reach a ply of 29 in just under 5 days... >>>>>>>could ANY human EVER beat it EVER? without computer assistance? >>>>>> >>>>>>Yes of course a human could beat it EVER. If it's a quiet position, the human >>>>>>could use those 15 moves to significantly improve their position while Shredder >>>>>>flounders around a bit. >>>>> >>>>>Shredder can also use the 15 moves to improve it's position. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>What would work much better, and what I do for post-game analysis of my games, >>>>>>is to let Shredder think for a while and then move, let it think, move and see >>>>>>what happens to the position. Or let it play against itself. I often do that, >>>>>>then find improvements for Shredder, get it to try that out. >>>>> >>>>>Shredder could find a lot of these improvement if you give it more time and it >>>>>can also find improvement that you did not find in that way. >>>>> >>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>I can add that 29 plies of shredder does not mean that it can see everything in >>>>the next 14 or 15 moves of both sides. >>>> >>>>It is obvious that shredder does a lot of pruning to get that depth. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>Yes it definately does pruning, but what is your thoughts on a human beating it >>>at those time controls? 5 days per move. (no computer assistance for the >>>human) >> >>I guess that inspite of the pruning No human will beat it with no computer >>assistence at 5 days per move. >> >>I do not claim that no human can do it but the humans who can do it have no >>reason to spend time on it because they are smart enough to use their time >>better(for example toearn money in over the board game). >> >>Top correspondence players have hard problems against computers even when they >>use computer help and using computer help is usually allowed in correspondence >>games. >> >> >>Uri > >I agree with Uri, I think that any chess computer/program will only play to a >certain level. Even given that amount of time if the program has pruned a good >positional move early on, it can only see the consequences if it were on a brute >force search. And then only if the program were clever enough to recognise it. I >bet Shredder would not play much better over 5 days a move than 1 hour a move. I am sure Shredder will play much better with 5 days a move than 1 hour a move unless it has some bug. Based on experience computers find better moves with more time and there is no limit. Uri
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