Author: Uri Blass
Date: 17:21:27 11/17/04
Go up one level in this thread
On November 17, 2004 at 20:03:39, Dann Corbit wrote: >On November 17, 2004 at 18:56:13, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On November 17, 2004 at 18:33:11, Dann Corbit wrote: >> >>>On November 17, 2004 at 18:00:38, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On November 17, 2004 at 17:16:37, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 00:33:30, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 00:22:01, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 20:14:23, Jonas Bylund wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 19:49:37, Dick Long wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 19:32:57, Mike Byrne wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 19:13:03, Dick Long wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Did Ferret ever become Freeware? If so where can you get it? Just wondering >>>>>>>>>>>because Bruce after years of promise never has and obviously never will put it >>>>>>>>>>>on the market. Further it's not as good compared to other programs now as it was >>>>>>>>>>>vs some older programs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>No - but it was clearly near the top at one time and at it's best , it was top >>>>>>>>>>amatuer for its day. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Perhaps some day he will release it - but I have no reason to suspect that he >>>>>>>>>>may. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Thanks , Too bad years ago he could have sold it to rebel or chessbase, and made >>>>>>>>>a nice piece of change easy. He just kept hmmming and hawing, i was like come >>>>>>>>>on bruce. He just refused. Tsk Tsk Tsk. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Not everbody is interested in money... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Of course but Bruce also never made it a free program and never sent it to >>>>>>>tournaments like Leo's WBEC so everybody could see what is it's strength >>>>>>>relative to other programs on equal hardware. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>>Of course Bruce does not have to explain and it is his own program >>>>>>but the fact that he never sent it to tournaments like WBEC or other tournaments >>>>>>is something that I do not understand because I expect programmers to be >>>>>>interested in results of their own program against different programs. >>>>>> >>>>>>Not releasing a free program is clearly understandable because of all the clones >>>>>>and I can also understand a decision not to sell the program if you believe that >>>>>>you cannot make enough money from it(I have no idea how much money earn the >>>>>>programmers of ktulu or partiot and maybe Bruce believes that the money that he >>>>>>can earn or could earn from selling Ferret is not enough money to justify caring >>>>>>about customers). >>>>> >>>>>I can think of lots of reasons why a person will not want to go commercial. >>>>> >>>>>1. You may lose a great deal of money. How possible? >>>>>Suppose that you make a royalty of $2 per copy of the program sold, and 200,000 >>>>>are sold. Sounds pretty good, because that is $400,000. But if in the same >>>>>time span you spend 10,000 hours on bug fixing, enhancements, tech support, etc, >>>>>then you made $40/hour. Sound pretty good? A programmer like Bruce can >>>>>definitely make $100/hour, so he lost $60/hour. Multiply by 10,000 hours and it >>>>>is a pretty good chunk of change. >>>>> >>>>>2. When you go professional, chess programming will cease to become a hobby and >>>>>instead become a job. >>>>>It's like the difference between digging a ditch and weight lifting. Nobody >>>>>wants to dig a ditch. But everyone loves to lift weights. Counter-intuitive, >>>>>but a real psychological phenomenon. When something ceases to become recreation >>>>>and instead becomes a job, all the fun can go out of it. >>>>> >>>>>3. There are dangers associated with any sort of chess programming. Suppose >>>>>you have a bug in your hobby program that it leaks memory. Who cares? It's a >>>>>hobby program. But if it is commercial then you _HAVE_ to fix it, and as soon >>>>>as possible or you are negligent. >>>>> >>>>>4. If you go commercial, then you have a responsibility to maintain the >>>>>product. If you release it and it needs corrections, it is not a friendly thing >>>>>to do to just try to walk away from it. How long will you be tied to >>>>>maintenance? Over the lifespan of any software product, 80% of the cost is in >>>>>maintenance. >>>> >>>>I do not believe that all the programs are the same. >>>>Maybe it is correct for programs in other fields but chess programs are >>>>different. >>> >>>Chess programs have no exemption. The 80/20 rule for software maintenance has >>>been known for decades. If you do not plan for it, then it is an absolute sure >>>disaster that will definitely happen. >> >>I know that programmers like Amir Ban have full time job not in chess >>programming and I did not see disaster. > >He wrote his program many years ago. In November 1997, he won the world >champion, still as an amateur. If he honestly tells you the hours he has spent >on it before then and since then, I am sure that the 80/20 rule applies. I do not know because I did not ask him but Junior of 1997 was clearly weaker than Junior of today and I guess that he spent hours on improving the engine. I believe that he spent thousands of hours before 1997. If we assume that he spent 5000 hours before 1997 then to keep the 80:20 he needed to spend 20000 hours about mintanence even without improving the engine. 20,000 hours in 10 years are more than 5 hours per day and he has full time job so he could have no time for improving the engine. > >>>> Chess programs represent thousands of hours of work for the very >>>>>top performers like Shredder or Ferret. Which means that the maintenance work >>>>>will be tens of thousands of hours. >>>> >>>>I see no reason that maintenance work will be tens of thousands of hours for >>>>chess programs. >>> >>>It is not just time spent sitting down at the keyboard typing code and testing. >>>It is time spent documenting. It is time spent talking about new features. It >>>is time spent in meetings that are tangential to the tasks at hand. It is the >>>total cost of maintaining a program. >> >>Nice theory but even sitting down and writing code to fix bugs that users do not >>like is not done and Amir does not care about cases when Junior cannot find >>simple things if it has not big influence on it's rating. > >In any case, he will have spent far more time in maintenance than in writing it. > >>>>It seems to me that for chess programs maintenance of commercial program is >>>>clearly less time then developing the program. >>> >>>Not a chance. >>>Unless there is some magic wand that can remove the burdens of software >>>maintenance from a chess program, it will be exactly like all the others. >> >>Yes >>There is some magic that is simply not caring about it. > >That is called negligence. If you are told about it and do not act, it becomes >malice. Malice can pierce the veil of corporate invulnerability and land you in >jail. I do not know about people who went to jail only because of not fixing bugs in software that they sold. Uri
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