Author: Dann Corbit
Date: 17:52:37 11/17/04
Go up one level in this thread
On November 17, 2004 at 20:45:00, Dann Corbit wrote: >On November 17, 2004 at 20:40:02, Dann Corbit wrote: > >>On November 17, 2004 at 20:21:27, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On November 17, 2004 at 20:03:39, Dann Corbit wrote: >>> >>>>On November 17, 2004 at 18:56:13, Uri Blass wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 18:33:11, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 18:00:38, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 17:16:37, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 00:33:30, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 00:22:01, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 20:14:23, Jonas Bylund wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 19:49:37, Dick Long wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 19:32:57, Mike Byrne wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On November 16, 2004 at 19:13:03, Dick Long wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Did Ferret ever become Freeware? If so where can you get it? Just wondering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>because Bruce after years of promise never has and obviously never will put it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the market. Further it's not as good compared to other programs now as it was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>vs some older programs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>No - but it was clearly near the top at one time and at it's best , it was top >>>>>>>>>>>>>amatuer for its day. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Perhaps some day he will release it - but I have no reason to suspect that he >>>>>>>>>>>>>may. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks , Too bad years ago he could have sold it to rebel or chessbase, and made >>>>>>>>>>>>a nice piece of change easy. He just kept hmmming and hawing, i was like come >>>>>>>>>>>>on bruce. He just refused. Tsk Tsk Tsk. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Not everbody is interested in money... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Of course but Bruce also never made it a free program and never sent it to >>>>>>>>>>tournaments like Leo's WBEC so everybody could see what is it's strength >>>>>>>>>>relative to other programs on equal hardware. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Of course Bruce does not have to explain and it is his own program >>>>>>>>>but the fact that he never sent it to tournaments like WBEC or other tournaments >>>>>>>>>is something that I do not understand because I expect programmers to be >>>>>>>>>interested in results of their own program against different programs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Not releasing a free program is clearly understandable because of all the clones >>>>>>>>>and I can also understand a decision not to sell the program if you believe that >>>>>>>>>you cannot make enough money from it(I have no idea how much money earn the >>>>>>>>>programmers of ktulu or partiot and maybe Bruce believes that the money that he >>>>>>>>>can earn or could earn from selling Ferret is not enough money to justify caring >>>>>>>>>about customers). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I can think of lots of reasons why a person will not want to go commercial. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1. You may lose a great deal of money. How possible? >>>>>>>>Suppose that you make a royalty of $2 per copy of the program sold, and 200,000 >>>>>>>>are sold. Sounds pretty good, because that is $400,000. But if in the same >>>>>>>>time span you spend 10,000 hours on bug fixing, enhancements, tech support, etc, >>>>>>>>then you made $40/hour. Sound pretty good? A programmer like Bruce can >>>>>>>>definitely make $100/hour, so he lost $60/hour. Multiply by 10,000 hours and it >>>>>>>>is a pretty good chunk of change. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>2. When you go professional, chess programming will cease to become a hobby and >>>>>>>>instead become a job. >>>>>>>>It's like the difference between digging a ditch and weight lifting. Nobody >>>>>>>>wants to dig a ditch. But everyone loves to lift weights. Counter-intuitive, >>>>>>>>but a real psychological phenomenon. When something ceases to become recreation >>>>>>>>and instead becomes a job, all the fun can go out of it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>3. There are dangers associated with any sort of chess programming. Suppose >>>>>>>>you have a bug in your hobby program that it leaks memory. Who cares? It's a >>>>>>>>hobby program. But if it is commercial then you _HAVE_ to fix it, and as soon >>>>>>>>as possible or you are negligent. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>4. If you go commercial, then you have a responsibility to maintain the >>>>>>>>product. If you release it and it needs corrections, it is not a friendly thing >>>>>>>>to do to just try to walk away from it. How long will you be tied to >>>>>>>>maintenance? Over the lifespan of any software product, 80% of the cost is in >>>>>>>>maintenance. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do not believe that all the programs are the same. >>>>>>>Maybe it is correct for programs in other fields but chess programs are >>>>>>>different. >>>>>> >>>>>>Chess programs have no exemption. The 80/20 rule for software maintenance has >>>>>>been known for decades. If you do not plan for it, then it is an absolute sure >>>>>>disaster that will definitely happen. >>>>> >>>>>I know that programmers like Amir Ban have full time job not in chess >>>>>programming and I did not see disaster. >>>> >>>>He wrote his program many years ago. In November 1997, he won the world >>>>champion, still as an amateur. If he honestly tells you the hours he has spent >>>>on it before then and since then, I am sure that the 80/20 rule applies. >>> >>>I do not know because I did not ask him but Junior of 1997 was clearly weaker >>>than Junior of today and I guess that he spent hours on improving the engine. >>> >>>I believe that he spent thousands of hours before 1997. >>> >>>If we assume that he spent 5000 hours before 1997 then to keep the 80:20 he >>>needed to spend 20000 hours about mintanence even without improving the engine. >> >>Maintenance includes improvements (of course). In fact, every act of >>maintenance is also an act of improvment, if you think about it. (Bug >>corrections, documentation, etc.). >> >>>20,000 hours in 10 years are more than 5 hours per day and he has full time job >>>so he could have no time for improving the engine. >> >>52 work weeks per year * 5 days per work week * 10 years = 26000 work days. >>That figures out to less than one hour per day. > >I'll save you some time -- it is 2600 days (at 8 hours per day a maximum of >20,800 could be spent). > >So I guess he spent 5000 hours. Which would put development time at 1000 hours. >I would be interested to know from Mr. Ban how accurate those figures may be. 1000 hours / 8 hours per day = 125 days 125 days / 5 days per work week = 25 weeks (about 6 months of full time work to write it). My estimate also would mean that in the last ten years, he would have put in four years effort in maintenance.
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