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Subject: Re: draw by insufficient material

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 16:46:44 11/18/04

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On November 17, 2004 at 16:19:55, Jan K. wrote:

>On November 17, 2004 at 16:02:32, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 17, 2004 at 14:04:06, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On November 17, 2004 at 13:35:16, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 08:39:40, milix wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 17, 2004 at 08:27:47, Jan K. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Under winboard/arena which of the following positions should be claimed(/can be
>>>>>>claimed) as drawn by insufficient material-KBKN, KBKNN, KNNKNN? I thought that
>>>>>>KBKN can be claimed as a draw, but once this position happened under Fritz GUI,
>>>>>>my engine claimed draw and stopped playing but GUI still expected me to move and
>>>>>>my engine lost on time. Thx.
>>>>>
>>>>>[D] knB5/8/1K6/8/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
>>>>>
>>>>>White to move and mate in one - so this position is not a draw. The king is in
>>>>>the wrong corner.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Fine, but what was black's last move?
>>>>
>>>>Had to be the knight.  Which could only have come from a6 or c6 otherwise it
>>>>would have captured the white king.  Therefore there was a forced draw one move
>>>>earlier, where black left the knight on a6/c6 and moved his king instead.
>>>>
>>>>It's a draw.
>>>
>>>It is not a draw by insufficient material.
>>>A program may evaluate it as 0.00 but not stop moving.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>It is a draw by insufficient material so far as I can see.  The definition of
>>"insufficient material to force checkmate" seems pretty clear.  Neither side can
>>_force_ checkmate here.
>
>
>Checkmate cannot be forced there, but is this really the right definition of
>'draw by insufficient material'?
>
>This is from (maybe outdated) FIDE chess rules I found:
>
>9.6. The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot
>occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play.
>This immediately ends the game.

Here is the test to use.  You are a TD.  Two players walk up to you with a
dispute on their game.  It is a KB vs KN position.  The KN side wants to claim a
draw.  The KB side wants to play on.  You look at the position and verify that
mate can't be forced.  Do you make them play on?

I don't...

I can't imagine _any_ TD would, either...



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