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Subject: Re: Re KRPKBP

Author: Laurens Winkelhagen

Date: 09:24:28 11/22/04

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On November 22, 2004 at 11:20:19, Steve Coladonato wrote:

>On November 22, 2004 at 09:16:58, Laurens Winkelhagen wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Hi Steve,
>>
>>I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, so I don't know if this reply will
>>make sense to you, but:
>>tablebases only tell only one side of the story: there is a KRPKBP tablebase but
>>there won't be a KBPKRP tablebase. The board is flipped appropriately. There are
>>obviously positions where KBP will win over KRP, which is why there are both
>>maxDTM for 1-0 and for 0-1. There wouln't need to be 0-1 maxDTM scores when
>>there would be a seperate KBPKRP tablebase, but there isn't;-)
>>
>>Hope I make sense, Laurens.
>
>
>Thanks Laurens.
>
>It's not totally clear yet.  I will have to think over the concept of flipping
>the board to figure out why tablebases provide the statistics for either side
>winning.
>
>In the example I gave, white had the rook and black had the bishop.  Hence, I
>don't think there is a need for flipping the board and the tablebases should
>determine whether white wins, loses, or draws.  Is that correct?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Steve

Indeed. But I feel I have obfuscated the issue:

One possible source of confusion occured to me while I was browsing through some
EGTB-probe code: When I said flipping the board, I actually meant inverting the
color of the pieces.

Let's use some of the Crafty Code Comments to clarify things:

/*
 ************************************************************
 *                                                          *
 *   yes, finish setting up to probe the tablebase.  if     *
 *   black is the "winning" side (more pieces) then we need *
 *   to "invert" the pieces in the lists.                   *
 *                                                          *
 ************************************************************
 */

In your example, white is the "winning" side, hence the board need not be
flipped.

Now, the next step is clear:

/*
 ************************************************************
 *                                                          *
 *   now check to see if this particular tablebase for this *
 *   color to move is registered.                           *
 *                                                          *
 ************************************************************
 */

Probing the tablebases will now give one of three possible types of outcome:
0 = it's a draw
positive = I (site-to-move) am gonna win in xxx half-moves
negative = I'm gonna lose in xxx half-moves
Actually, I didn't even see your first post until now.

So, in actuality there are two KRPKBP tablebases, one for wtm and one for btm.
Both give both 1-0 and 0-1 results. This is why we can distinguish four maxDTM
values. Inverting the pieces is only relevant in case black has KRP and white
KBP.

Regarding 1/2-1/2 results: "maxDTM" for 1/2-1/2 is by definition pointless,
which is why the EGTB's return the value "0" for such positions.

I Hope this clarifies things, Laurens, author of Jan Willem (with a big help
from kind Prof. Hyatt regarding the EGTB-probe code, thanx again, Robbert
Hyatt:-)



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