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Subject: Re: Amendment to my Opinion Poll Question

Author: Don Dailey

Date: 18:07:31 01/17/99

Go up one level in this thread


> I have nothing against the current moderators, and I asked for a Forum and I
> have never had anything removed or even heard from a moderator, but how about
> creating a more refined set of rules and regulations, I mean you could put these
> things down on a txt file in a few hours, and if quite a few poeple put forward
> their ideas then we might get a set of rules to handle these problems.
>
> I mean to post something so as to bring across a point about a moderation issue
> is not a post that should be removed. I mean lets face it if a post should be
> removed then well it should be obvious, but those posts in dispute I think
> should not have been.
>
> Lets fix this now and move on and stop letting it fester.
>
> Why leave it up to different moderators to handle things there own way,
> differing from the previous ones, no wonder people see there posts removed and
> think what the hell was wrong with that. When for the previous moderators it was
> acceptable.
>
> You say that you did not come here for this crap about rules and
> regulations,then fix it now so it will never have to be worried about again.
>
> Easy fix. I would hate to see dictators emerge in this group, we might have to
> have a coup. :-)


A reasonable response, thanks for the reply.

You seem to think this  hasn't come up  before.  But no matter what we
might do what will happen is the following basic scenario:

  . Suppose the current guidelines of conduct on CCC get expanded according
    to some ideal specification to be determined by a committee being
    formed and the group consulted with lots of voting and such.

  . Everyone feels warm and fuzzy for this effort and these new rules
    and regulations with penalties and sentences get prominantely posted
    for all to see and admire.

  . Someone gets angry at someone else and makes a comment that might
    or might not be interpreted as an attack.

  . The moderators decide to remove his post.

  . The disgruntled member calls for a new system to be put into place
    to control the actions of the moderators, who "unfairly" removed
    his wonderful post.

  . The whole process is repeated.


There are a few fundamental problems here.  The  most important one is
that their will always be posts that some members think should go, and
other members think  should stay.  We  could write a rulebook and make
it arbitrarily  complicated.  But this won't  change the sentiments of
the ones who think post  X should get removed  and post Y should  have
been allowed.  The problem  on this group HAS  NOTHING to do with what
you think you are  addressing.  This will always  come up whenever any
action is being taken  against a member with too  much pride.  I don't
say this to attack anyone, I think each and every one of us has at one
time or another in our life been too prideful.

Another problem, is why do  we have the  right to decide the rules for
everyone that comes  after us?  You  want to fix  some set of rules so
that there is no possibility of rules  changing from one moment to the
next.  But in what way  do new members who didn't  happen to be around
when these rules were decided by you and me get any representation?

The simple truth  of the matter is that  we already have a GOOD system
in place and like it  or not this system is  controlled by ICD anyway.
The moderator won't become evil  dictators for two reasons, they would
get voted out in 6 months if they did, and ICD would step in if things
got really  ridiculous.  You are  imagining problems that don't exist,
but you haven't even covered the more basic problem  of how to control
ICD and I doubt your rules will address this.  But if anyone wanted to
become dictatorial, they  could do  it  and you would be   essentially
powerless.  But  no one is   crying about this,  we simply  trust them
because we are  happy with the  fact  that they have  contributed this
group to us and they are such nice dictators they stay out of our way.

I am seriously  against any  movement  to turn simple guidelines  into
rules and regulations with punishments spelled out.   I am a free man,
I come here for fun  and relaxation and I  won't be subjected to a set
of rules and regulations.  At  least not here.   But  I will agree  to
follow  simple guidlelines which  we already have   in case you didn't
know.  Most of this  movement seemed to be  based on the idea that  we
have some kind of  anarchy and need to  establish some kind of system.
But  we  have  a great system,   3  moderators to  temper each  others
decisions, 6 month moderator  term  limits and  voting to  get serious
representation.  We take this for granted but  ICD could have set this
up any way they  felt like, in true  dictator fashion.  I get the idea
that if   someone handed us 100  dollars  just out of the  goodness of
their heart we would complain that it should have been 200 dollars.

Also,  what problem do  you  think you are  addressing?   If I want to
insult you I can always do it in a way that avoids any specific rules.
I can do it with careful strokes, making implications without actually
directing it at you in an obvious way.  Then I can use the rulebook to
defend myself against the moderators.

When  I moderated we had  a member use  this tactic.  His  plan was to
gradually taunt other members until they blew up  in his face and then
he could DEMAND  the punishment of that individual.   He was very good
at it, but when  we confronted him with it  he always pleaded innocent
and asked us  to  give him a  concrete  example which we couldn't   if
everything  was took absolutely  literally.  His mode of operation was
to always  interpret everything literally unless of  course it  was an
attack on him.  Several members sent us private email about this, they
knew exactly what was going on and we  did too.  We eventually removed
this individual.   Now if that   former  members see's this post   and
confronts me with it  I can ask him to  give me concrete proof that  I
was talking about him.

We have a good  system.  The moderators NEED  to have plenty of leeway
to interpret our written guidelines and our written guidelines need to
be kept very simple.   Each instance of  a problem  is so unique  that
anything less  than this hurts the group  and  individual members too.
We we were  able to remove this  former member (who's name  MIGHT have
started   with an 's')   precisely because there  was not  a rule that
constrained us.

If you  add  this frustration  to the  moderators  and make  them just
policemen  with no discresionary  power then the  job  would become so
unpalatable that we would have a new problem, how to keep moderators.

- Don



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