Author: blass uri
Date: 14:06:59 01/20/99
Go up one level in this thread
On January 20, 1999 at 16:42:08, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On January 20, 1999 at 01:29:50, Jouni Uski wrote: > >>On January 19, 1999 at 16:13:53, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On January 19, 1999 at 01:08:14, Jouni Uski wrote: >>> >>>>On January 18, 1999 at 07:03:44, Amir Ban wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 18, 1999 at 05:42:13, Jouni Uski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In my 47 position endgame test suite I have this kind of results in P90 10MB >>>>>>hash 10 min per position: >>>>>> >>>>>>Fritz5 41 (!) no TBs >>>>>>Mchess 7 39 no TBs >>>>>>Fritz 4 37 >>>>>>Nimzo 98 34 >>>>>>Crafty 16.2 33 >>>>>>Rebel 10 32 >>>>>>Junior5 29 (!) >>>>>> > >OK... I looked at this suite and ran it on my quad xeon. One minute per move, >and get 39 right, whether I use tablebases or not. (the 3-4 piece positions are >so simple they can be solved with a normal search, so the tablebases speed >things up, but it is a difference between 1 second and .01 seconds in those >cases. > >I looked at the 8 I got wrong at 1 min, and I am not sure that all of those are >'winning moves'. IE what I would like to see is (a) how move X wins and (b) how >all the other moves don't win. In one case the key move was at ply=3 in the PV >as it found another move it thought should be played first, and the score was >still 'winning.' > >But as I looked at other results it became apparent that this is not only a >tactical suite in many cases, but some positions are probably _not_ tactical. >And then it is a question of positional judgement. Several I got right >instantly based purely on positional evaluation. Some it _only_ got right >on positional grounds with no tactical win in sight. > >Nothing wrong with a position, _if_ there is a reason for a move. IE in fine >70, white plays Kb1 or it draws. You can search to see Kb1 wins a pawn, or you >can search to see Kb1 is the only move that keeps you on the coordinated square >with your opponent. But clearly Kb1 wins, everything else draws. Some of these >positions don't leave me with that 'feeling'... > >And I don't like tests that produce results like that unless it is to 'find this >plan' where you have 2-3 moves that must be played, and so long as they show up >in the PV, it is considered correct... > >Because you choose the right moves, whether for the right or wrong reason is >a question of course... > > > >>>>>>Conclusion: Either 1) I have selected positions badly or 2) endgame skills >>>>>>have not so much importance. But I have got from CCC feeling, that J5 is >>>>>>good in actual endgame play. >>>>> >>>>>Can you repost the suite or give a link to it ? >>>>> >>>>>Amir >>>> >>>>5k2/8/8/8/8/2P5/8/3K4 w - - id "01 Kc2"; >>>>8/7p/8/3K3P/8/8/8/5k2 b - - id "02 Ke2"; >>>>8/5p2/2k5/K7/8/1P6/8/8 b - - id "03 Kd5"; >>>>8/8/4K3/4P2p/8/5k2/8/8 w - - id "04 Kf5"; >>>>5k2/8/3K1Pp1/6P1/8/8/8/8 w - - id "05 f7"; >>>>5k2/8/8/1p5p/1P5P/8/4K3/8 w - - id "06 Kd3"; >>>>8/7p/p7/1p1k4/8/3K4/1P4PP/8 w - - id "07 b4"; >>>>8/8/1p1k4/5ppp/PPK1p3/6P1/5PP1/8 b - - id "08 f4"; >>>>6k1/6p1/6Pp/ppp5/3pn2P/1P3K2/1PP2P2/3N4 b - - id "09 Nc3"; >>>>8/5k1p/5P1P/1p6/bKpB4/P1P5/1P6/8 w - - id "10 b3"; >>>>6k1/2b2p1p/ppP3p1/4p3/PP1B4/5PP1/7P/7K w - - id "11 Bxb6"; >>>>8/8/8/5bk1/8/8/4B1PP/5K2 b - - id "12 Bh3"; >>>>3b4/5kp1/1p1p1p1p/pP1PpP1P/P1P1P3/3KN3/8/8 w - - id "13 c5"; >>>>8/8/8/8/8/8/pn2K3/B1k5 b - - id "14 Na4"; >>>>5k2/1p6/p7/4pr2/8/P7/1P4P1/R5K1 w - - id "15 Rf1"; >>>>8/8/2k5/8/4PK2/8/6R1/4r3 w - - id "16 Rd2"; >>>>R7/4k3/8/8/8/p7/r3p3/4K3 b - - id "17 Ra1"; >>>>5k2/p1p4R/1pr5/3p1pP1/P2P1P2/2P2K2/8/8 w - - id "18 Kg3"; >>>>8/5k2/2p4R/5p2/8/P6P/1P4r1/1K6 b - - id "19 f4"; >>>>6k1/1pR2p1p/1p6/3p1p2/4rP2/P3K3/1P4PP/8 w - - id "20 Kd3"; >>>>2K5/2P2R2/k7/8/8/8/2r2p2/8 w - - id "21 Kb8"; >>>>8/8/3q4/8/1P2K3/8/Q7/7k w - - id "22 Qd5"; >>>>3K4/p2PQpkp/2q5/4P3/8/8/8/8 b - - id "23 Qb6+"; >>>>k7/8/2p5/4P3/4B3/6p1/8/2n3K1 w - - id "24 Bd3"; >>>>k1N5/2p5/8/1P6/8/8/7K/8 w - - id "25 Nb6+"; >>>>2n5/kP6/8/K7/4B3/8/8/8 w - - id "26 bxc8N+"; >>>>8/3Np3/7P/1p3P2/1k6/5K2/1b6/8 w - - id "27 f6"; >>>>2r5/2pR1pk1/p1P3p1/P2K4/5P1p/5P1P/8/8 w - - id "28 Rxc7"; >>>>8/1p5k/p1p4n/P6P/1P4N1/8/6K1/8 w - - id "29 Nxh6"; >>>>8/6pk/1p6/8/PP3p1p/5P2/4KP1q/3Q4 w - - id "30 Qf1"; >>>>8/2b2pp1/K2p4/p4P2/P7/6P1/8/2k3B1 w - - id "31 f6"; >>>>8/4k3/8/6r1/1KP5/8/8/7R w - - id "32 Rd1"; >>>>8/4kp2/4p1p1/2p1r3/PpP5/3R4/1P1K1PP1/8 w - - id "33 g4"; >>>>3k4/3q4/8/4Q3/5P2/6K1/8/8 b - - id "34 Qe7"; >>>>8/k7/8/2R5/8/4q3/8/4B2K w - - id "35 Bg3"; >>>>8/8/2N4p/p5kP/P1K5/1P6/8/4b3 w - - id "36 Nxa5"; >>>>8/8/pp6/3b2K1/1P6/PN2k3/8/8 w - - id "37 Na5"; >>>>3R4/2N2p1p/5kp1/r7/pb6/4P1P1/5P1P/6K1 b - - id "38 a3"; >>>>8/6Q1/p3r2p/3k3K/6P1/8/8/8 w - - id "39 Qxh6"; >>>>8/7p/3k2p1/6P1/4KP2/8/7P/8 w - - id "40 h4"; >>>>8/2p5/8/2kPKp1p/2p4P/2P5/3P4/8 w - - id "41 d6"; >>>>7K/k7/8/P7/6pP/8/8/8 w - - id "42 a6"; >>>>8/pKR5/8/p7/8/8/2p5/2k5 w - - id "43 Kb8"; >>>>k7/7K/NR6/8/7p/6p1/p7/8 w - - id "44 Nb8"; >>>>8/8/5p2/5p2/5P2/3p3B/5k1P/3K4 w - - id "45 Bg2"; >>>>8/1p6/4p3/1K2k3/8/P7/8/8 w - - id "46 Kc5"; >>>>4kr2/R4p2/6p1/8/1K6/3B4/8/8 w - - id "47 Bf5"; >>>> >>>>Note, that DarkThough can solve all 47 in 10 minute level! So they are probably >>>>all correct. >>> >>> >>>That's not a convincing argument. A computer can find bad moves just as >>>efficiently as it can find good moves. I had hoped this was an endgame test. >>>But it sounds more like a tactical test based on endgame positions. IE just >>>another WAC test suite. I'd like to see more tests without a tactical solution, >>>where you have to play a move because it is the _right_ move, not because it >>>wins tactically. IE like the non-tactical half of the Bratko-Kopec test... >> >>But why is Junior so poor in this suite, when tactically it's normally very >>strong and up to Fritz?! > >Good question. One is an underpromotion, so it won't get that one. :) But >I'll bet that other programs are solving many of them purely on positional >considerations and not tactical ones... which means 'judgement' is needed. And >_if_ the key moves are not best tactically, can we be sure they are best >positionally??? > >It might be that Junior is doing better than anyone here, because some of those >moves might be bad... I believe that all of the moves are right because I read that darkthought found all of them, but there are some cases when there is more than one practical solution. I believe that Junior5's move Nf6+ in number 29 is also winning(The solution Nxh6 is the simplest). I also know that Junior5 is bad at very simple positions relative to other programs. For example it could not solve position number 14 in 10 minutes. Uri
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