Author: Stephen A. Boak
Date: 17:00:25 12/26/04
Go up one level in this thread
On December 26, 2004 at 18:09:11, Uri Blass wrote: >On December 26, 2004 at 17:25:19, Reinhard Scharnagl wrote: > >>Hi Uri, >> >>> I have no problem with programmers of Yace and Comet but for some reasons I >>> have problem to understand intelligent posters like the programmer of Smirf >>> even more than Frank quisinsky and intelligent player like Eduerd Nemeth >>> often cannot write in english here unless he is using babelfish translation. >> >>there might be some different self caused reasons for me not to be understood: > >Hi Reinhard,one reason that it takes more time to understand your posts is >because the order of your words in a sentence is often not the normal order >and the problem here is not your original ideas. > >instead of "for me not to be understood" it is better for you to write >"that people do not understand me" > >The word "people" is the subject of that sentence and not "me". > >You are not the subject because people are supposed to do the action of >understanding. > >Another example from another subject in the winboard forum is the following >sentence: > >"Not at all there could be noticed by me an effect of reaching some plies more >in depth" > >In this case you are the subject because you do the active action of noticing >the effect so the sentence can start with the word "I" and you could write >simply: > >"I could not notice an effect of searching deeper" > >The normal order is: >1)I(subject) >2)notice(verb) >3)effect(something that the verb is about) > >You have in that sentence >1)noticed(verb) >2)me(subject) >3)effect > >Uri Here are some thoughts on the problem of communication in a foreign language. 1. I have a friend from another country whose native language I do not read nor speak (not even a little). Sometimes he translates a poem from his native language into English. Worse yet, sometimes he creates his own poems in English. He asks me, "Steve, please check my English work and correct it." I have a big problem with that, although I am an 'expert' in my native language (English). I write very well in English, if I do say so myself. The problem is: He cannot explain the poems to me (translations or personal creations). He cannot explain the meaning of the poems to me (in spoken English words). He cannot explain the intent of the author. I therefore have absolutely zero knowledge of the author's meaning, yet he expects me to correct his English writing!! In order to select a better word, or to revise a sentence structure into a better one, you need to know what you are trying to convey and how you are trying to convey it. Lesson--in order to translate accurately, one must know the author's meaning. 2. You are correct--there are probably more simple ways to say things in English. But you may be incorrect in thinking you understand a better way, since you may not understand the author's meaning and intent. The problem is often big when the author does not write in his native language. The problem is even bigger when the author's sentences are not in your native language (if you are not an expert in that non-native language). Lesson--When non-native writers and readers communicate, errors in communication may be quickly propogated. Assumptions by the writer may not be the same as assumptions by the reader. Meaning and intention of the writer may not be the same as what the reader assumes. 3. What you call normal order is not necessarily the best way to write. It is not a fixed rule in English to write that way. In English grammar school, teachers show students how to identify the parts of speech. Parts of speech are the way words are used in a sentence--as nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc. The teacher shows students how to diagram a sentence (in structured picture form) to better find and understand the parts of speech and how they relate to each other in the sentence. If you can diagram a sentence very well, even non-standard sentence forms are usually understandable. But sentences written by a non-English person may not be understandable, and therefore cannot be easily "corrected" to communicate better. In normal English speech, and in normal English writing, the parts of speech are not always in the same location in a sentence. English has complex capabilities, which are useful for conveying complex ideas, artistic notions, etc. This is easy for most native English readers to understand, but not so easy for a non-native. 4. Uri, your English is much improved, since your early posting days. The same improvement exists in your chess program (movei). Keep up the good learning! But always remember, not everybody has learned as much as you about the English language. 5. Thoughts and ideas are often complex. In such cases, it often takes hard work to communicate those ideas in clear English. The English language has many subtle nuances that are useful for (and treasured by) the expert reader/writer. I agree that some of those refinements should be avoided by a poster, to allow non-English persons to understand the posting more easily. The non-English person can make a lot of progress by reading native English sentences as much as possible. Newspaper articles, bulletin boards, anything written by a good English writer. Be careful not to change a non-English person's writing into your notion of good English. You may make assumptions that the original author did not intend. You may even drop out of a forum (Winboard) and later find out that you made a mistake! :) --Steve
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