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Subject: Re: Testposition

Author: Ulysses Omycron

Date: 19:56:36 12/31/04

On December 30, 2004 at 07:01:31, Janos Keinrath wrote:

[d]8/3k4/2p1bp2/1p2p1p1/1PP1P1P1/1K1B1P2/4N3/4b3 b - -

>Black has bishop pair but the black king can't enter the white camp,
>pawns blocked, black can't make any progress, so it's draw.
>
>Which program evaluates this position as draw?

Shredder 8 certainly doesn't :(

New game
8/3k4/2p1bp2/1p2p1p1/1PP1P1P1/1K1B1P2/4N3/4b3 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Shredder 8:

1...Bxc4+ 2.Bxc4 bxc4+ 3.Kxc4
  ²  (0.31)   Depth: 1/4   00:00:00

{Snip}

1...Ke7 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Kd7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nc2 Bd2 6.Na3 bxc4+ 7.Nxc4
  µ  (-0.73)   Depth: 11/21   00:00:00  109kN
1...Ke7 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Kd7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Kd6
  ³  (-0.70)   Depth: 12/23   00:00:01  159kN
1...Ke7 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Kd7 4.Bf1 Be3 5.Nc3
  µ  (-0.72)   Depth: 13/23   00:00:01  251kN
1...Kd6 2.Kc2 Bxc4 3.Nc3
  µ  (-0.73)   Depth: 13/23   00:00:01  336kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 bxc4+ 3.Bxc4 Bxc3 4.Kxc3 Bc8
  µ  (-0.73)   Depth: 13/23   00:00:02  355kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Kd7 4.Bf1 Be3 5.Na3 Bb6
  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 14/24   00:00:02  539kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Ke7 4.Na3 bxc4+ 5.Nxc4 Bxc4+ 6.Bxc4 Be1 7.Bd3 Ke6
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 15/26   00:00:04  874kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Ke7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Be2 Bd2 6.Nb1 Be3 7.Na3 Bd2 8.Nb1 Be3
9.Na3 Bd2 10.Nb1
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 16/27   00:00:06  1282kN
1...Ke7 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1
  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 16/27   00:00:06  1352kN
1...Ke7 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 bxc4+ 4.Bxc4 Bc8 5.Nc3 Be1
  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 16/27   00:00:06  1421kN
1...Ke7 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Kd6 4.Kc3 Be1+ 5.Kb3 Kd7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 c5 8.bxc5 Be3
9.Nc3 Bg1
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 17/26   00:00:08  1849kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3
  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 17/26   00:00:08  1904kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 bxc4+ 3.Bxc4 Bxc3 4.Kxc3 Bc8 5.Bb3 c5 6.bxc5+ Kc6 7.Bc4 f5
  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 17/29   00:00:09  1956kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6 8.Na3 Be1
9.Be2 Bd2 10.Nb1 Be3 11.Na3 Bd2 12.Nb1 Be3 13.Na3 Bd2 14.Nb1
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 18/30   00:00:14  3257kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 19/29   00:00:18  3948kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 20/31   00:00:22  4950kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 21/32   00:00:29  6307kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 22/35   00:00:41  8714kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 23/37   00:00:57  11721kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6
  ³  (-0.62)   Depth: 24/39   00:01:19  16174kN
1...Kd6 2.Nc3 Bf2 3.Nb1 Bf7 4.Na3 Be1 5.Nb1 Ke7 6.Nc3 Bf2 7.Nb1 Be6
  ³  (-0.57)   Depth: 25/43   00:02:05  25956kN

(31.12.2004)

*Is disappointed* I made a small DPA showing that Shredder gives tons of
different moves the same score; to a human it's easy to detect a draw, but If
Shredder can't handle this, to detect this draw a program may need a bug that
causes draw scores :P

(You may need to copy and paste this into CB to understand the DPA):

[Event "It's a draw ******* ****! (Those are just kewl stars)"]
[Site "Multiverse"]
[Date "2004.12.31"]
[White "Shredder 8"]
[Black "Shredder 8"]
[Result "Black is winning (Yeah sure)"]
[Annotator "Ulysses Omycron"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/3k4/2p1bp2/1p2p1p1/1PP1P1P1/1K1B1P2/4N3/4b3 b - - 0 1"]
[TimeControl "120+12"]

1... Kd6 (1... Ke7 2. Nc3 (2. Nc1 Bf2 $15 {[%eval -63,13]} (2... Bg8 $15 {
[%eval -63,13]}) (2... Kd6 $15 {[%eval -63,13]}) (2... Bf7 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}
) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kd7 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Ke8 $15
{[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kf7 $15 {[%eval -60,13]}) (2... Kf8 $15 {[%eval -60,13]
})) (2. Ng1 Bg8 $15 {[%eval -62,14]} (2... Kd6 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf2
$15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kd7 $15 {
[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bh4 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bg3 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}
) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Ke8 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Kf7 $15
{[%eval -60,14]}) (2... Kf8 $15 {[%eval -60,14]})) 2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,12]
} (2... Kd6 $15 {[%eval -55,12]})) (1... Bf7 2. Nc3 (2. Nc1 Kd6 $15 {
[%eval -64,13]} (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -64,13]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -63,13]})
(2... Ke7 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Be6 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kc7 $15 {
[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -61,13]}) (2... Ke8 $15 {[%eval -60,13]}
) (2... Kc8 $15 {[%eval -58,13]})) 2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,13]} (2... Kd6 $15
{[%eval -54,13]})) (1... Kc8 2. Nc3 (2. Ng1 Kd7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]} (2... Bf7
$15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kc7 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Kd8 $15 {
[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Bg3 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Bh4 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}
) (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -60,14]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -58,14]}) (2... Kb7 $15
{[%eval -57,14]}) (2... Kb8 $15 {[%eval -57,14]})) (2. Nc1 Kd7 $15 {
[%eval -62,14]} (2... Bf7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -61,14]})
(2... Kc7 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -60,14]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {
[%eval -58,14]}) (2... Kb7 $15 {[%eval -57,14]}) (2... Kb8 $15 {[%eval -57,14]}
) (2... Bg3 $15 {[%eval -53,14]}) (2... Bh4 $15 {[%eval -53,14]})) 2... Kc7 $15
{[%eval -57,14]} (2... Kd7 $15 {[%eval -57,14]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -54,14]}
) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -48,14]}) (2... Kb7 $15 {[%eval -47,14]})) (1... Kd8 2.
Nc3 (2. Ng1 Ke7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]} (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf7
$15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kd7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Ke8 $15 {
[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kc7 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Kc8 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}
) (2... Bh4 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -60,14]})) (2. Nc1 Ke7
$15 {[%eval -62,14]} (2... Ke8 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kd7 $15 {
[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}
) (2... Kc7 $15 {[%eval -61,14]}) (2... Kc8 $15 {[%eval -60,14]}) (2... Bg8 $15
{[%eval -60,14]}) (2... Bh4 $15 {[%eval -53,14]})) 2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -60,13]
} (2... Kd7 $15 {[%eval -57,13]}) (2... Kc7 $15 {[%eval -57,13]}) (2... Ke7 $15
{[%eval -57,13]})) (1... Bg8 2. Nc3 (2. Nc1 Ke7 $15 {[%eval -67,14]} (2... Kc7
$15 {[%eval -67,14]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -64,14]}) (2... Be6 $15 {
[%eval -64,14]}) (2... Kd6 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}
) (2... Ke8 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -60,14]}) (2... Kc8 $15
{[%eval -60,14]})) 2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -60,14]} (2... Be6 $15 {[%eval -57,14]}
) (2... Kd6 $15 {[%eval -54,14]}) (2... Kc7 $15 {[%eval -50,14]})) (1... Ke8 2.
Nc3 (2. Nc1 Kd7 $15 {[%eval -64,14]} (2... Bf7 $15 {[%eval -64,14]}) (2... Ke7
$15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kf8 $15 {
[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kf7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}
) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -61,14]})) (2. Ng1 Kd7 $15 {[%eval -68,14]} (2... Ke7
$15 {[%eval -68,14]}) (2... Bf7 $15 {[%eval -64,14]}) (2... Kf7 $15 {
[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kf8 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}
) (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bh4 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Bg3 $15
{[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -61,14]})) 2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,14]
} (2... Kd7 $15 {[%eval -57,14]}) (2... Ke7 $15 {[%eval -54,14]})) (1... Kc7 2.
Nc3 (2. Nc1 Bf7 $15 {[%eval -62,13]} (2... Kb6 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Bf2
$15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kd6 $15 {
[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kd7 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}
) (2... Bd2 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kb8 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kb7 $15
{[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Bh4 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kc8 $15 {[%eval -62,13]
})) 2... Kb6 $15 {[%eval -62,13]} (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -62,13]}) (2... Kd6 $15
{[%eval -55,13]}) (2... Bg8 $15 {[%eval -54,13]}) (2... Kd8 $15 {[%eval -54,13]
})) 2. Nc3 (2. Nc1 Bf7 $15 {[%eval -67,14]} (2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -67,14]}) (
2... Kc7 $15 {[%eval -65,14]}) (2... Kd7 $15 {[%eval -64,14]}) (2... Bg8 $15 {
[%eval -62,14]}) (2... Ke7 $15 {[%eval -62,14]}) (2... c5 $15 {[%eval -60,14]})
) 2... Bf2 $15 {[%eval -67,14]} *

As a fact, you could give us this:

[d]8/8/2pkbp2/1p2p1p1/1PP1P1P1/1KNB1P2/5b2/8 w - - 0 3

The position after short DPA -0.67/14 (~.~')

Note: Programs don't think it's draw because they hope the enemy to blunder and
so they win!... Then again, they may expect to blunder themselves and so they
lose... 0.o

Shredder 8 often tends to avoid draws by evaluating as 0.01 or -0.01 Graham Banks 01:23:12 01/02/05
- It should be 0.09 or so... Ulysses Omycron 14:23:08 01/02/05
  - Re: It should be 0.09 or so... Graham Banks 16:16:32 01/02/05
Re: Testposition Of course Shredder 8 sees the Draw! chandler yergin 00:49:09 01/01/05
- Shredder 8 sees no Draw Ulysses Omycron 16:30:12 01/01/05
  - Re: Shredder 8 sees no Draw chandler yergin 04:36:58 01/03/05
    - Re: Shredder 8 sees no Draw Ulysses Omycron 10:50:52 01/03/05
      - Re: Shredder 8 sees no Draw chandler yergin 14:47:31 01/03/05
  - Re: Shredder 8 sees no Draw chandler yergin 04:26:07 01/03/05
    - Re: Shredder 8 sees no Draw Uri Blass 06:56:27 01/03/05
      - Re: Shredder 8 sees no Draw chandler yergin 10:49:10 01/03/05
        
        Shredder 8 sees no 0.00 score!!! Ulysses Omycron 11:02:09 01/03/05
        
        Re: Shredder 8 sees no 0.00 score!!! chandler yergin 15:03:32 01/03/05
        
        Re: Shredder 8 sees no 0.00 score!!! chandler yergin 14:08:01 01/03/05
        
        Time out ... Mike Byrne 19:11:19 01/04/05

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