Author: chandler yergin
Date: 05:58:41 01/09/05
Go up one level in this thread
On January 09, 2005 at 03:40:06, Sandro Necchi wrote: >On January 08, 2005 at 22:35:28, chandler yergin wrote: > >Hi, > >>On January 08, 2005 at 21:40:12, odell jones wrote: >> >>>On January 08, 2005 at 20:21:56, chandler yergin wrote: >>> >>>>On January 08, 2005 at 18:00:30, Derek Paquette wrote: >>>> >>>>>We've seen Junior and fritz play kramnik and kasparov,.. fritz more than once. >>>>>Does anyone know if Kasparov/kramnik/topolov will ever get to play Shredder? > >I agree with you that ChessBase should chose a different program than Fritz to >play Kasparov as we saw Fritz more than once, but maybe "someone" in ChessBase >is a fun of Fritz...:-) > >Chess Base should select the program that is the strongest to face the strongest >chess player. > >Since Shredder is leading the SSDF list since years now, we do not see articles >on Chess Base site on this anymore...maybe it is not news anymore:-) > >>>>> >>>>>At the Men vs Machine world championship, shredder was absent. > >Even if asked we would have refused as we had to work on the new Shredder 9. > >>>>> >>>>>when are we going to get to see shredder play a MATCH vs a super grandmaster, >>>>>and a high profile one at that. > >I hope soon! >It is only a hope as, as far as I know, there is nothing planned on this yet. > >>>>> >>>>>Anyone heard anything? Anyone know anything about this subject?? >>>>> >>>>>Why not have the strongest computer program playing the humans, atleast ONCE. > >I agree 100%!! > >>>> >>>> >>>>The ELO Performance Rating of the TOP Programs approaches ELO = 2600 > >This is not correct. > >Not considering Hydra, which has a very powerful hardware and talking about the >top commercial programs the Elo is the following: Where would Hydra fit into this Category: Hiarchs 8 Opening Tree based on 1,323,335 Games Ave Elo 2403 Perf. 2436 Fritz 8 Opening Tree Based on 122,921 Games Ave Elo 2573 Perf. 2619 Fritz 7 Opening Tree Based on 239,391 Games Ave Elo 2549 Perf. 2582 Shredder 8 Opening Tree Based on 520,335 Games Ave ELO 2510 Perf. 2544 Fritz 5.32 Opening Tree Based on 110,503 Games Ave Elo 2537 Perf. 2584 Who has determined Hydra has a Performance Rating of over 2800? Who has determined Hydra or any other Program has an Elo of 3000? How can a Program have an Elo of 200 Points Higher, than the Opponents it plays? > >2200 if the opening is very bad and the position is very bad for them; they do >not know how to handle it. > >3000 if the opening is very good and the resulting middle-game/endgame is >suiting the program. Also using a powerful hardware. > > >So, the trik is to bring the program in the best suiting positions as much as >possible to get at least 2800 Elo. > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Where do you get 2600 from??? The Evidence suggest much higher >> >> >>I refer you to a Post and Dialog I had on CTF >> >> >>Thanks for input.. >>>>Hiarcs 8 appears to have the largest & up to date Opening Book of all the Top >>>>Programs. >>> >>>I disagree on that, the size of an opening book has very little to do with >>>quality. Currently there are 3 opening book experts in the world, 1) Sandro >>>Necchi (Shredder), 2) Aleander Kure (ChessBase), Jeroen Noomen (Rebel, Chess >>>Tiger). The author of the Hiarcs opening books I don't consider as a leading >>>expert. > >The size of the book has nothing to do with the quality of the book. Quality >means selection and "changes" as in the current theory there are a lot fo >mistakes (moves/variations which are very weak and are shown good). >If we take the openings books of top programs (Shredder, Fritz, Junior & Chess >Tiger; just to mention the most famous ones) we can see that there are a lot of >moves which are not in "human theory" or that the given evaluation is different. >This means that the book authors have been working on them. Some of them since >years... > >Also when we all meet at the WCCC you can see that the openings books are >different than the commercial ones and so it would be the same when facing a >strong human player. >This is forced to avoid some weaker lines which are in the commercial books to >increase variety and not to let the opponents know what we would play to avoid >the opponent prepare against us. > >Kramnik asked to get the program in advance and the book also before the match >against Shredder some years ago. >We refused. >This request was changed facing Fritz. > >>> >>>I am not sure about GM Boris Alterman (Junior) and Dan Wulff (Gandalf) as true >>>experts, they could be but I don't know their work quite well. By a true expert >>>I mean those people who are walking encyclopedia's when you talk with them about >>>computer opening theory. Or, when you hear them debating, you don't believe your >>>ears, they know every dusty place of their large opening books of often more >>>than 500,000 positions. > >Only 500,000 positions? > >>> >>> >>>>Yet Shredder 8 keeps on going and winning.. so it has to be something >>>>else. >>>>What? >>> >>>Better search + better chess knowledge. What else? >>> >>>Ed >> >> That must be it! Congrats to the Programmers! Awesome! >> >>I was looking for a relationship between the Opening Tree & Performance. >> >>Perhaps you can comment on this.. or see some relationship >> >>Hiarchs 8 Opening Tree based on 1,323,335 Games Ave Elo 2403 Perf. 2436 >> >>Fritz 8 Opening Tree Based on 122,921 Games Ave Elo 2573 Perf. 2619 >> >>Fritz 7 Opening Tree Based on 239,391 Games Ave Elo 2549 Perf. 2582 >> >>Shredder 8 Opening Tree Based on 520,335 Games Ave ELO 2510 Perf. 2544 >> >>Fritz 5.32 Opening Tree Based on 110,503 Games Ave Elo 2537 Perf. 2584 >> >> I note also that the Source of the Fritz Games are those >>published in Chessbase Magazine. >> >>Each Version of Fritz of course has more Chessbase Magazine published games. >> >>Anyway... I'll turn 'my' Ponder off, and wait for your comment if any. >>;) >>Chan >> >> So, Odell, If you can "refute" the above..please do so.. >>Or >>STFU! >>CY >> >> >>>> >>>>Kasparov is/was = 2830 The strongest Player in History! >>>> >>>>Progerams have NO intelligence.. they Store & Retrieve Data! >>>> >>>>What they play in the Opening is GM Moves.. played before! > >This is not true at least since 8 years. I am talking about the top chess >programs and not only about Shredder. > >The reason most people do not know this is because they mainly test without >books or with books made from games databases... > >>>> >>>>Why would those who know this.. have much interest in a Match like that? > >You do not know. This was the case in 1987 when I showed the GMaster opening >book in Rome at the 7th WCCC which did include new moves and not only those >which are in chess books and ECO. >In fact if you take a game won by a strong GM against another one you will not >be able to play it anymore as the GM did study that game and already decited >what to change to improve it. >So the only way to surprise them is to bring something new they are not prepared >to face...I know it is not easy...but it is the only way. > >>>> >>>>People go to Car Races to see someone Crash into a Wall. >>>>People watch Human vs Computers to see the Human fall into a Position where the >>>>EGTB's take over. > >This is very unlikely as they take over too late in the game... > >>>> >>>>Fritz Programs have a BUG! >>>>Other Programs have BUGS! >>>>The Human.. using the Programs with BUGS; Figure out 'what' the BUG IS, >>>>and learn how to play to exploit the weakness. > >It is not that easy...and we also know our weaknesses and work on them to >eliminate/improve them in many ways... > >>>> >>>>Cars go faster than Horses... so what? >>>>Peple still like to watch Horses. >>>> >>>>Others don't care, and like to watch Cars. >>>>So What? >>>> >>>>Are you getting my point? > >No, I think you are not updated with currently top chess programs. > >Sandro
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